USA rules....sub rule

[MCBear]

I was going to agree with Felix until I read this exact situation in the Case Book (page 46).

Situation 15.22
A team requests two substitutions which will result in the 12th and 13th team substitutions.

Ruling:
The second referee allows one substitution, denies the other, and charges the team with an improper request. When a substitution request includes a legal and an improper substitution, the legal substitute may enter the set. In this case, the coach or captain may decide which substitution is preferred, provided this is done without delay.

Reference:
USAV 15.6a
USAV 15.9.1c
USAV 15.10.4a

So, according to this, the IR is the proper procedure.

[FMadera]

Originally Posted by MCBear

I was going to agree with Felix until I read this exact situation in the Case Book (page 46).





So, according to this, the IR is the proper procedure.

Again, I think this is assuming we have lost track of the sub count (the casebook doesn't usually take into account preventative actions). The scorer is telling the R2 no, they can only use one, then we have to take care of making sure which one they want, etc., so there is a penalty that CAN be assessed, but doesn't necessarily need to be.

We can assess a penalty (not a yellow card, just the generic definition) for an overlap, and yet, we can also warn and prevent things from getting to that point. I see this as no different IF the R2 is aware of things and can deal with it quickly.

[oldsetter]

Interestingly, a sub request is defined as a player entering the sub zone. If a player approaches the sub zone but does not enter, we do not recognize the sub and do not penalize. So for multiple subs, if a player left the 'stack' before entering the sub zone why would that be an IR....they were requesting nothing. I know we assume multiple subs and I know what the case book says, but wouldn't this be more of a delay than an improper request? In the case of a player entering the sub zone and leaving before we could recognize them would you administer an IR or a delay penalty even though it had no effect on the game?

This was a conversation generator......

[Antonio.King]

Originally Posted by oldsetter

Interestingly, a sub request is defined as a player entering the sub zone. If a player approaches the sub zone but does not enter, we do not recognize the sub and do not penalize. So for multiple subs, if a player left the 'stack' before entering the sub zone why would that be an IR....they were requesting nothing. I know we assume multiple subs and I know what the case book says, but wouldn't this be more of a delay than an improper request? In the case of a player entering the sub zone and leaving before we could recognize them would you administer an IR or a delay penalty even though it had no effect on the game?

This was a conversation generator......

They are a part of the original request by the legal pair. This is why we stress that if teams have multiple substitutions, that the pair we're not dealing with patiently be ready and waiting outside the zone for authorization to enter.

Otherwise, if we've already administered the sub that we whistled, and all of a sudden here comes another sub from the bench after we've already sent in the one they've requested, that's dangerously close to two separate requests. Normally, we'd allow it, tell the coach "Hey, speed it up back there, otherwise I can't guarantee she'll get in." (not verbatim, of course. ).

But, since a team is only allowed one regular interruption per dead ball, that's why multiple subs are to be considered one request should they properly be standing and waiting while we're administering the sub pair that initiated the request. So even though they're not the pair that entered the zone, the pair before them that did step in technically "requested" entry for both of them.

A team delay wouldn't be appropriate because that's usually team initiated. They would have to be causing the delay. They (the subs) did what they were supposed to do in the sense of being there ready to go in, standing outside the zone, but unbeknownst to them (they don't know what they're doing half the time) they aren't allowed to enter because of reaching their maximum. So a "wave off" is all that's warranted. Now, if they were to stand there in the zone after you've waved them away looking dumbfounded, then you could sanction with a TD since they are now causing the delay.

In your latter example, you'd do nothing (unless you as the R2 feel it delayed the match, you can request a TD from the R1). If you didn't blow your whistle, there was no delay. It's not an improper request, because you as the referee didn't acknowledge it to determine whether or not it was improper. So, play on.

Here's a great video demonstrating some of the techniques used in FIVB when dealing with substitutions. One in particular, you'll see the coach motion for sub, in which case the R2 gestured that there's no one in the zone. Once the sub headed toward the zone, he waved off, basically telling him "too late". You can't see it in the clip, but the R1 gave them a team delay because it delayed the flow of the match, even though it wasn't technically "requested".

But, the key, which I agree with Felix, is catching it before you acknowledge the request. That saves the hassle (if it's considered one) and they generally appreciate it anyway (the teams). But if you don't catch it, and you whistle their request, it's an IR at the point for the 13th sub.

FIVB Multimedia teaching material for referees - substitution.flv - YouTube

[oldsetter]

Good thoughts Mr. King and thanks for the video. I did see the delay..part of that was due to the coach giving a hand signal and talking to the R2. I had another thought on a scenario, what if number 20 is the second sub waiting and as the first sub is entering, number 18 from the bench swaps with 20 with no perceived delay?

[Antonio.King]

Originally Posted by oldsetter

Good thoughts Mr. King and thanks for the video. I did see the delay..part of that was due to the coach giving a hand signal and talking to the R2. I had another thought on a scenario, what if number 20 is the second sub waiting and as the first sub is entering, number 18 from the bench swaps with 20 with no perceived delay?

If you or your partner believes no delay occurred, then you don't have to issue one. It'd probably be a smart move to caution the coach for next time, but otherwise, I'd say to allow it.

That's the beauty with Team Delays: most of the time, they're at your discretion. You issue them whenever you feel the match was delayed by an unnecessary action.

For example, when I have captains who enjoy continuously approaching the stand to question a judgement call, or if I have to stop a team's behavior (continuously yelling "TOUCH!" for ex.), I issue team delay warnings.

So it's totally at your discretion, but in the situation above, I would let it fly with a caution to the coach.