ground rules -vs- rule book

Buckeye12 · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 02, 2002, 02:43pm

I did a 16 & under game last night (FED) and this situation came up. With 1 out and bases loaded and the home team at the plate, the batter lines a pitch right back to the pitcher. The pitcher catches it and fires over to third to try to get the runner, who is still off the base. On this diamond is an open gate directly in line with the pitchers mound and third base. The ball goes over the third baseman's head and out the gate. I called the ball dead then moved the runner on first at the time of the pitch to third and the runner's on second and third scored. The visiting coach didn't like that decision at all and said that it was a one base overthrow, not two. I tried to explain to him that only a throw from the pitcher while on the pitcher plate was a one base award. Then after the game, the home team coach (actually he was my coach at one time) told me that I missed that call and it should have been a one base award. Was I correct on my ruling or were the coaches?

Bfair · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jul 02, 2002, 02:54pm

You were correct......2 bases from T.O.P.

Accepting coachs' interpretations of rules can get you in trouble.............

Just my opinion,

Freix

ccbestul · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 03, 2002, 10:08am

I disagree. Two bases from the TOP implies the base going to and the next. If the pitcher caught the line drive and throws out of play, the runner gets third and home. The runner on 2nd would be the same unless he was parked on the base.

Whowefoolin · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 03, 2002, 10:59am

2 bases at TOP!!! Not where you are going...it is what base you had occupied at the time.

Try again next time.

GarthB · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 03, 2002, 11:21am

ccbestul guessed:

"I disagree. Two bases from the TOP implies the base going to and the next. If the pitcher caught the line drive and throws out of play, the runner gets third and home. The runner on 2nd would be the same unless he was parked on the base. "

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT. Thanks for playing. We have a lovely parting gift: a rule book.

FVB_Ryan · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 03, 2002, 09:12pm

You made the right call. No question about it.

insatty · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 03, 2002, 10:42pm

You made the correct call for the wrong reason. The award is two bases from time of the throw because the attempt at 3B was the second play from the infielder. The catch retiring BR was the infielder's first play.

bob jenkins · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 04, 2002, 11:24am

Quote:

Originally posted by insatty
You made the correct call for the wrong reason. The award is two bases from time of the throw because the attempt at 3B was the second play from the infielder. The catch retiring BR was the infielder's first play.

(sigh ... here we go again)

When a fielder tries to "double up" a runner after a catch, and throws the ball out of play, the award is from the "original base." NAPBL 3.11

I'd suggest that "original base" and TOP are synonymous.

GarthB · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 04, 2002, 01:35pm

Thank's for looking up the reference, Bob. You've lead the horse to water. Now will he drink?

ccbestul · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 05, 2002, 10:29am

1. 8-3-5 states that "the act of fielding the ball is not considered a play from the field," TOP.
2. New appeal rule brought this subject up for discussion at our interp. meeting. A caught fly ball requires the runner to return to the base before the ball. If the ball goes out of play, he is not given the opportunity because of an immediate dead ball. Award two bases, the base at TOP and second. Sometime we hear and read what we want to. After re-reading, I found a little phrase on dead ball appeal: 8-2-5p: "runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities." I am ashened face with embarrassment.
3. This now creates another question. When do I award the two bases? After they do their baserunning responsiblities or upon the dead ball call? If I award too soon, they may go to their awarded bases before they re-touch the occupied base. Now I have a dead ball appeal situation I created.
Luckily, I have not run into this situation yet. I am very interested on how others have handled this situation.

insatty · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 05, 2002, 01:18pm

NAPBL 3.11's reference to "original base" makes perfect sense if we're talking about the base at time of pitch or throw, because after a caught fly no runner will have achieved the next base by time the ball leaves the fielder's hand. This argument is thus academic, but interesting nevertheless.

This horse is willing to drink anywhere at any time he finds that good authority contadicts his understanding. Quote to me OBR authority that says that an infielder who catches a liner to retire BR is not his first play and I will sigh too. Catching a liner and fielding a grounder and throwing to 1B before BR touches 1B both result in BR being out. So why would the latter be an infielder's first play and the former not?

GarthB · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 06, 2002, 02:19am

"Catching a liner and fielding a grounder and throwing to 1B before BR touches 1B both result in BR being out. So why would the latter be an infielder's first play and the former not?

"The play is the thing." Shakespeare

bob jenkins · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Jul 06, 2002, 09:32am

Quote:

Originally posted by insatty
Quote to me OBR authority that says that an infielder who catches a liner to retire BR is not his first play and I will sigh too.

NAPBL 3.1 "A play or attempted play shall be interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has posession of the ball to actually retire a runner." (emphasis added)

A fielder who catches a fly doesn't have posession until after the out; it's not a play.