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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 09, 2008, 01:27pm
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Identifying illegal back row attacks

I don't know if you VB vets have a good way to identify illegal back row player attacks......but if you do, would you share your tips?
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Old Tue Sep 09, 2008, 02:09pm
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Not sure i am a vet....but I have two things I do.

1) I find a "key" player to remember either a hard hitter or the setter then you get a feel for who is to their right and left and you can know where they are on the court.

2) I use the wheel as a line up tool and glancing down I can get back row players in my head quick

So something like this goes through my head, ok 7 is back left I got 7,10,18 as back row....then on the other side 8 is front row so 9, 1 and 12 are my back row......so if they do anything wrong I got them!
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Old Tue Sep 09, 2008, 02:55pm
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I'm hardly a vet yet either, but here's what I do:

Like Dave, I use the wheel, which I think is a fantastic invention. But it's not like you have time to check everybody every serve to see where they are in the rotation.

Mostly, I use it to track my setter and opposite.

I try to keep the numbers of the two who are front row in my head. So if blue's setter is 12 and her opposite is 7, and red's setter is 4 and opposite is 11, then on any given serve I'll note that 12 is back row, and 11 is back row. So I'm saying to myself, "7, 4. 7, 4. 7, 4."

It's really not all that useful to me when I'm R2. But it's good practice for me for when I'm R1. I don't have my wheel when I'm up, but I identify setter and opposite. Each serve I find my setter and opposite, and remember the numbers of the front row players. Then with each hit, I try to identify "front" or "back", saying the word in my mind.

Obviously at first, I'm identifying only one or two of the hits. But soon I begin to recognize who are the hitters that go with 12 and which go with 11. It's far from foolproof, but I feel like I'm starting to recognize alignments and identify hits as front or back row more frequently.

Don't know if any of that helps or not. I'm interested to learn what actual vets are doing
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Old Tue Sep 09, 2008, 02:59pm
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I follow the setter(s).

In my experience, most of your back row attack fouls (and back row blocker fouls) are from a back row setter up near the net. I also try to do something similar to Dave and keep track of the big hitters and when they rotate to the back row as well.

It does take practice and concentration, but keep at it...it will come to you.
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Old Wed Sep 10, 2008, 10:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BearBoy
I don't know if you VB vets have a good way to identify illegal back row player attacks......but if you do, would you share your tips?
People often ask me, "What's it like to ref volleyball? Pretty easy, right?" I always say that many parts are incredibly easy, and a few are impossible.

Identifying back row attack is impossible for me. I honestly don't even try to do it in a match, because I'm worried that I'll be trying so hard to find the back row, that I'll miss something obvious.

After reading the suggestions here, it doesn't really seem to make it any more possible. You still have to remember -- during the play -- the 6 players (half the people out there) who can't attack from in front of the attack line. (With liberos, it's only slightly less impossible -- only 4 to remember.) I readily admit that I am not capable of this.

Heck, there are many times as R2 when I can't even identify the back row of the receiving team before the serve. So how am I supposed to remember them during the play?

Personally, I find the whole thing unnecessary. Just put 6 players out there, make sure they serve in order, and let everyone just do what they do best. Making your best hitter play the back row for half the match is like making your quarterback play left tackle every other down. Does it add strategy? Sure. Does it make the playing of the game any better? Not that I can tell. It just makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated.
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Old Wed Sep 10, 2008, 11:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1
Identifying back row attack is impossible for me. I honestly don't even try to do it in a match, because I'm worried that I'll be trying so hard to find the back row, that I'll miss something obvious.

Personally, I find the whole thing unnecessary. Just put 6 players out there, make sure they serve in order, and let everyone just do what they do best. Making your best hitter play the back row for half the match is like making your quarterback play left tackle every other down. Does it add strategy? Sure. Does it make the playing of the game any better? Not that I can tell. It just makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated.
Ouch ! It hurts to even read this. Scrapper, you definitely don't want me as a coach on your match, because if you allow an opponent's back row player to make an illegal back-row attack, I will blow a gasket, and you will be fully deserving of it. And I'll say it point blank... as an official, you're not supposed to "choose to call the faults that you want, and allow other faults because you don't even try and you find it unnecessary." It is necessary on so many levels that conradict your reasoning:
1. It makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated - On the contrary, allowing faults to occur causes serious coach, team and spectator pandemonium and outrage against the officiating crew, and you create the possibility of complete loss of control of the match.
2. You severely tarnish the trust given to the officials by the sporting administration and schools/clubs. YOUR lack of desire to enforce the printed rules makes ALL OF US look bad. Can you think of a basketball official in the news lately?
3. Does it make the playing of the game any better? - More to the point, if you don't call back-row attacks, you now have 5-6 hitters against the opposing team which is adhering to the rules and allowing themselves only front-row hitters.
4. Where does it end? - Why not allow back-row blockers and Libero blockers.

Since you are so comfortable allowing, and not even bothering to look for illegal back-row attacks, then I invite you to, at least, be up-front and honest with the coaches & captains at your pre-match coin-toss. To be fair to both teams, inform them that you will not be looking for illegal back-row attacks because you find it unnecessary. I definitely want to be in the audience at that match.
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Old Wed Sep 10, 2008, 11:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrozetti
And I'll say it point blank... as an official, you're not supposed to "choose to call the faults that you want, and allow other faults because you don't even try and you find it unnecessary."
I'm "sure" (based on conversations with him in other forums) that Scrapper meant that if he were made "god of the volleyball rules" that he would CHANGE the rules to allow any offensive and defensive line-up / block / attack, except that he'd still require the 6 players (and subs) to take turns serving.
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Old Wed Sep 10, 2008, 11:27am
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What would the game look like if there were no front row/back row distinction? 5-6 hitters v. 5-6 blockers? Or would it naturally evolve such that you need a variety of different skill positions to counter different kinds of attacks?

And why exactly do we have this distinction? Is it just historical accident? Or is there a deliberate reason for it? Not that I'm dissing the game for how it has evolved, just asking. I realize it would change the game, but would it make the game worse, or just different?

Coming from a basketball background, it seems natural to me for any player who is able to make any kind of play anywhere on the court.
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Old Wed Sep 10, 2008, 11:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
I'm "sure" (based on conversations with him in other forums) that Scrapper meant that if he were made "god of the volleyball rules" that he would CHANGE the rules to allow any offensive and defensive line-up / block / attack, except that he'd still require the 6 players (and subs) to take turns serving.
That was my impression of his post as well.
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Old Wed Sep 10, 2008, 11:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
I'm "sure" (based on conversations with him in other forums) that Scrapper meant that if he were made "god of the volleyball rules" that he would CHANGE the rules to allow any offensive and defensive line-up / block / attack, except that he'd still require the 6 players (and subs) to take turns serving.
Hi Bob. Unfortunately, you are misunderstanding what Scrapper said... he didn't say "if"... his exact words are, "I honestly don't even try to do it in a match." He "is" doing this presently. As an official opting to ignore definite faults that cause an "absolute unfair advantage" to the attacking team, he is failing at his duties, cheating the players of a fairly officiated match, and defying his officiating oath. Scrapper cannot be defended for "choosing" to poorly perform his duties... it is an ongoing learning process... and if you choose to stop improving and opt instead to allow faults to occur unpenalized, it is time to hang up the whistle, for the sake of the sport, the teams, and the officials.
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Old Wed Sep 10, 2008, 12:30pm
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It took five years...

for me to recognize a back-row attack/back-row block and once I had done it, I kept trying to figure out how I had done it. I struggled with it for the whole fifth season (can you say 1987???).

When someone told me to keep track of the setter, things suddenly became a LOT clearer. I was able to begin working with my wheel to recognize and even to call the violation.

It was 1995, I think, when I first became aware that I needed to figure out a method of tracking all six service rotations l This was hastened by an incident in a college match where my partner was late and did not arrive until the third game of the match. I had no problems during the first two games, but during the third, there was a collision under the net. After sorting things out and be assured that neither player was injured, we played on. The visiting team was serving and, when I looked at the server, something just didn't look right to me. I asked my partner if this was the correct server and he said "yes". I still wasn't sure so I asked again and he still said, "yes?" We played on and the visitor ended up winning the third game (they had been down 2-0 before this game). I got down off the stand and went across to the table because I had been seeing match-ups during the serves that I had not been seeing all night previously. I got to the scoretable and found out that the person doing the scoring had NO IDEA how to do book! She had written some things downs during the match to this point, but had not recorded the service procedure correctly in a single game prior to this. Bottom line is that this particular game, with its wrong rotations not caught, I began learning how to track all six rotations for both teams on the court so that I would not get burned again.
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Old Wed Sep 10, 2008, 12:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retrozetti
Ouch ! It hurts to even read this. Scrapper, you definitely don't want me as a coach on your match, because if you allow an opponent's back row player to make an illegal back-row attack, I will blow a gasket, and you will be fully deserving of it.
And I'll toss you from the gym faster than you can say "back row attack". And you'll be fully deserving of it.

Quote:
as an official, you're not supposed to "choose to call the faults that you want, and allow other faults because you don't even try and you find it unnecessary."
If you read my post again, you'll notice that I am not "choosing" not to call it. I freely and fully admit that I am not capable of keeping track of the necessary information. It is not a case of seeing the violation but ignoring because I disagree with the rule. I simply don't see it. And I'm afraid that if I put the necessary effort into trying to see it, that I will miss other more obvious calls.

Quote:
1. On the contrary, allowing faults to occur causes serious coach, team and spectator pandemonium and outrage against the officiating crew,
Cats and dogs living together! Mass hysteria!! How many spectators even know what a back row attack is? Let alone, see it when it happens. Again, that's not WHY I'm not calling it. Just pointing out a little over-the-top emotion in your post.

Quote:
2. You severely tarnish the trust given to the officials by the sporting administration and schools/clubs.
Do you think I'm doing the Olympics or something? The NCAA tournament? I'm learning with 7th and 8th graders, for crying out loud. Dial it down a little. You think JV basketball officials get every travel or illegal screen?

Quote:
YOUR lack of desire to enforce the printed rules makes ALL OF US look bad.
What a ridiculous comment. It makes me look bad. It might make my partner look bad. Possibly it makes my local board look bad, if the coach is a real idiot. But how does me not recognizing a back row attack make you or MCBear, or BITS look bad? Come down off the high horse.

Quote:
Where does it end? - Why not allow back-row blockers and Libero blockers?
1) If there's no front-row or back-row, then there is no Libero. 2) Answer your own question. Why not allow back-row blockers or attackers? Why not allow any player on the court to make any play that he or she can? What is the real problem with that?

Quote:
To be fair to both teams, inform them that you will not be looking for illegal back-row attacks because you find it unnecessary. I definitely want to be in the audience at that match.
You need to take a deep breath and re-read my original post.
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Old Wed Sep 10, 2008, 12:54pm
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And how do you track all six?
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Old Wed Sep 10, 2008, 12:56pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCBear
When someone told me to keep track of the setter, things suddenly became a LOT clearer. I was able to begin working with my wheel to recognize and even to call the violation.
I have also heard about finding the setter. And I have tried in warm-ups to identify the setters, etc. I just can't hold it in my brain with the other stuff.

And I don't use a wheel. I have one, but nobody around here uses it. And I did try it last year, but I just couldn't get the hang of it. Maybe I'll try again tomorrow.

If I can keep track of it 4 years from now, I will consider that a minor miracle. But I'll try the wheel tomorrow and see if that helps.
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Old Wed Sep 10, 2008, 01:09pm
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I have found the wheel very helpful, Scrappy. It's been an investment in time/effort to learn to use it. But it's paid off to this point.

Of course, you can't use it (the same way) on the ladder. But using the wheel when I'm down has helped me with recognizing setter and opposite when I'm up. And I'm getting to the point where I can often (perhaps even usually?) determine if the setter is BR or FR from where she sets up in the alignment. I realize there are other alignments I'm not familiar with yet, but it's a start.
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