Identifying illegal back row attacks

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

he is failing at his duties, cheating the players of a fairly officiated match, and defying his officiating oath.

Did you really take an officiating oath?!?! Did they ask you to raise your right hand and place your left hand on a rule book that's been passed down through 5 generations of your family? Was it a chief justice or merely a justice of the peace who administered your oath?

If you didn't have your name in your signature line, I'd say you were a drama queen. Relax a little bit and don't be so quick to pile on a fellow official.

I'm primarily a college basketball official. I work damn hard at being as good as I can be. I understand that an official gives his best effort every time out, regardless of the level of the competition.

However, this is my SECOND year of officiating volleyball. I have a total of about 40 matches under my belt. So my best effort falls well short of most people's.

So take that information for what it's worth. You can dial down your rhetoric, or I can put you on my ignore list. I couldn't care less which one happens.

[refnrev]

Scrappy,
I share your diffficulty in seeing BR at times. One thing that helps is if you have one girl who is just absolutely heads and houlders better at kills and spikes than the others, I follow her to the BR and see who's beside her. But honestly, I depend a great deal on my patners and let them know I am doing so before the match begins. I have some partners who can see everything with one eye close and one eye squinted... they are that good. I watch them and rely on them a lot!!

[refnrev]

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

Ouch ! It hurts to even read this. Scrapper, you definitely don't want me as a coach on your match, because if you allow an opponent's back row player to make an illegal back-row attack, I will blow a gasket, and you will be fully deserving of it. And I'll say it point blank... as an official, you're not supposed to "choose to call the faults that you want, and allow other faults because you don't even try and you find it unnecessary." It is necessary on so many levels that conradict your reasoning:
1. It makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated - On the contrary, allowing faults to occur causes serious coach, team and spectator pandemonium and outrage against the officiating crew, and you create the possibility of complete loss of control of the match.
2. You severely tarnish the trust given to the officials by the sporting administration and schools/clubs. YOUR lack of desire to enforce the printed rules makes ALL OF US look bad. Can you think of a basketball official in the news lately?
3. Does it make the playing of the game any better? - More to the point, if you don't call back-row attacks, you now have 5-6 hitters against the opposing team which is adhering to the rules and allowing themselves only front-row hitters.
4. Where does it end? - Why not allow back-row blockers and Libero blockers.

Since you are so comfortable allowing, and not even bothering to look for illegal back-row attacks, then I invite you to, at least, be up-front and honest with the coaches & captains at your pre-match coin-toss. To be fair to both teams, inform them that you will not be looking for illegal back-row attacks because you find it unnecessary. I definitely want to be in the audience at that match.

___________________

I hope that you mean you would question him somewhat politely and not blow a gasket. Do really want him making calls he's guessing about? Why not suggest he consult his partner or point out where the violation occured and how. The latter seems productive to me. The other seems very counter productive to the game.... and he can't see what he doesn't see. And, I know of a coach whose games I used to work who deliberately told her players to commit BR attacks until the official called them. Great sportsmanshsip, eh? And, it wasn't that long ago that games were officated by 1 official. Do you think they got IAs and BRs every time?

[MCBear]

Scrapper, as BITS said, it takes time and effort. The advantage you have is that you have blown a whistle in basketball, so you know how to do one of the most important facets of the game.

I have learned (due to working with electric motor parts and having to know their ID numbers by heart) to memorize the numbers of the players who are on the court for both teams. Now, I will admit that I have gotten lazy as I have aged, so I actually look to see where my floor captain is located, then I look for each team's setter (if the captain and setter are the same, so much better!) Then I look to see who the first server for each team is. Once I know who is "I", and where my setters are in the rotation, I don't have too much more to worry about.

Plus, here is a little secret that no one ever tells newbies - those back-row players try to get away with illegal stuff! Can you imagine? They actually try to get stuff by us when we are unsure about where they are on the court.

Here is the way to foil those shifty little critters. After they have hit the ball or blocked the ball back to the other side of the net, watch where the player goes...if they drop back on defense, they ARE back-row and you can blow the whistle and give the BRA signal. One other thing you can do is wait until the play is over and then watch where your suspect player goes to on the court. If she goes to CB or LB or LF, guess what? She was a back-row player and you can call the illegal contact up until the time that you beckon for the next serve (something they don't mention in the training manuals!!!).

Hope those suggestions help you out, Scrapper. BTW, one reason you can't see the back-row attack/block is because I am betting that you say that you can't with emotion. As long as you vehemently say that you can't see it, my friend, you never will...it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Good luck!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by MCBear

Hope those suggestions help you out, Scrapper.

I will try to experiment with them as the season progresses. I'll try the wheel tomorrow as well.

BTW, one reason you can't see the back-row attack/block is because I am betting that you say that you can't with emotion.

Honestly, when I originally said it in this thread, it was a simple statement of fact. I can't see it. I can't process all the information. I only got emotional when Mike jumped all over me and grossly misrepresented my original comments.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Of course, you can't use it (the same way) on the ladder.

I beg to differ! I use the wheel when I am the up official. I take a big binder clip, one of those black C shaped things with chrome extensions that will fold either way, and I clip that baby on the net, center on the rope so it kind of hangs to either side of the rope and I can easily grab the wheel and turn it as the sides rotate! Works great. It may be a security blanket for me but I am SO much more in the game when I have it up there with me. Also I can glance down during the action and see if I missed something(second guess if 6 was back row). Also I have yet to have the teams waiting on me this year to write down a sub on my wheel. One more tip since we are on the wheel kick, get a 2nd one. Now you have can have one with team A on the right team B on the left and one with team B on the right and A on the left. Great thing is a lot of teams dont change their lineups so after the 1st game erase the subs from the outer ring and you usually have your card all ready for game 3!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I beg to differ! I use the wheel when I am the up official. I take a big binder clip, one of those black C shaped things with chrome extensions that will fold either way, and I clip that baby on the net, center on the rope so it kind of hangs to either side of the rope and I can easily grab the wheel and turn it as the sides rotate! Works great. It may be a security blanket for me but I am SO much more in the game when I have it up there with me. Also I can glance down during the action and see if I missed something(second guess if 6 was back row). Also I have yet to have the teams waiting on me this year to write down a sub on my wheel. One more tip since we are on the wheel kick, get a 2nd one. Now you have can have one with team A on the right team B on the left and one with team B on the right and A on the left. Great thing is a lot of teams dont change their lineups so after the 1st game erase the subs from the outer ring and you usually have your card all ready for game 3!

Consider yourself lucky Here we have been told specifically we're not allowed to use a wheel or card as R1.

That said, I still take it up with me. Having noted who the setters are during warmups, I note the opposites while R2 is checking lineups. Then the thing goes in my pocket, until I need a quick check. I also note subs for either of those players as they occur.

It usually doesn't take too long to identify a pattern to how the coach subs the setter and opposite. Sometimes it's never. Sometimes it's subbing a hitter for the setter when she rotates to the front in a 6-2. Sometimes it's swapping a blocker for a passer as the opposite in a 5-1 rotates to the front. Those substitutions help me, because I recognize that if player X is in the game, then my setter is back row, while if player Y is in, my setter is front row.

Oh, and I also write down who won each game. I can't ever seem to remember from game to game. And I don't want everybody's final impression of me to be that I told everybody to switch sides when it was end of match, or vice versa.

[jkumpire]

Get a dry erase marker, and write on the back of your hand:

1. Each team's captain
2. The setter and his/her opposite.
3. Refer to your hand very quickly until you get the hang of who is who.
4. When you are up, remember that you need to signal legal BRA's. In some places they don't care if you do, others will be all over you if you don't. but the more you use the legal BRA signal (i.e. the more you see legal BRA's), the more comfortable you will get with seing and looking for the illegal ones.
5. See if you can do some JV/Varsity matches, if you are not doing them already. You know how pressure gets the mind to concentrate, it will happen here too.
6. If you can, get a veteran guy or gal to work a match w/ you as an observer/helper. JH, Fr. or maybe JV won't care if you have help, and it may make you feel better in your learning curve.

Once you find a way to drill the setter's number in your head, the whole floor will open up to you!

Also, go to a HS Varsity match, follow the crew around in pregame, then grab a wheel and work with it. Get a good 5 set match, and you will feel comfortable with it.

Be patient with yourself, if you are coming in from other sports w/o a lot of VB experience as a player/coach/fan, it is easy to get lost. Work as hard on this as your do your BK rules and mechanics, and it will come. When you think about your hoops experience, you have so much experience in your brain, that a lot of things even good HS guys have to think about you do as a matter of course, w/o thinking. VB gets to be that way too, if you work at it.

Dollars to donuts, sometime early next season it will all come into focus,and you will start to see it, both BRA's and overlaps.

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Did you really take an officiating oath?!?! Did they ask you to raise your right hand and place your left hand on a rule book that's been passed down through 5 generations of your family? Was it a chief justice or merely a justice of the peace who administered your oath?

If you didn't have your name in your signature line, I'd say you were a drama queen. Relax a little bit and don't be so quick to pile on a fellow official.

I'm primarily a college basketball official. I work damn hard at being as good as I can be. I understand that an official gives his best effort every time out, regardless of the level of the competition.

However, this is my SECOND year of officiating volleyball. I have a total of about 40 matches under my belt. So my best effort falls well short of most people's.

So take that information for what it's worth. You can dial down your rhetoric, or I can put you on my ignore list. I couldn't care less which one happens.

There are officials that bust their butt to try and do their best, and then there are those that have posted on other officiating boards here that say "if you want to take up another sport, officiate volleyball, it's easy money." And, unfortunately, I've had the displeasure to have those officials as partners. Maybe you forget that I don't know who you are... you said you'd call me a "drama queen" if my signature wasn't displayed, and I actually provide plenty of information of who I am and what level I'm at... you're profile doesn't even list your real name... so how am I to know if this is your 1st, 40th or 10,000th volleyball match? But however long or short you've been officiating volleyball, it's still important to "try to improve." You talk about my over-the-top emotion... I say it's appropriately proportionate to your comments. When an official says "I honestly don't even try to do it (look for back row attack) in a match"... you didn't say that you're struggling with learning it... hey, anyone who's learning and having trouble deserves support and guidance. BUT, anyone who says they "don't even try" and then follow up with "Personally, I find the whole thing unnecessary" and then also says "it just makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated" well, I have a HUGE problem with that attitude. Also, when I told you that I'd blow a gasket if I was a coach having you not even trying to call back row attacks, think about what you replied to me, you said "And I'll toss you from the gym faster than you can say "back row attack". And you'll be fully deserving of it." Do you hear yourself? You'd throw me out for being upset that you "don't even try" to look for illegal back-row-attack's? Guess what, that's your job! I'm serious when I say that you need to either change your attitude or hang up your whistle. You said "do you think I'm doing the Olympics" and I say it doesn't matter what age or performance level, an illegal back-row-attack is illegal, no matter what. And finally, to answer your question about the oath, in NFHS it's called the Officials Code of Ethics, in NCAA it's called the Code of Ethical and Professional Conduct, and in USAV it's called Philosophy of Rules and Refereeing - The Referee within this Framework. So while your mocking my comments, my defense of proper officiating, and my disdain of poor attitudes and poor officiating lacking any desire to improve, I truly don't appreciate your comments such as "Did you really take an officiating oath?!?! Did they ask you to raise your right hand and place your left hand on a rule book that's been passed down through 5 generations of your family? Was it a chief justice or merely a justice of the peace who administered your oath?" So, if you're standing so tall with your thoughtless sarcastic remarks, why won"t you publish your REAL name? I did.

[Back In The Saddle]

Lighten up, Francis.

You've been here for what, like 2 weeks and have contributed a whopping 23 posts. The last two of which seriously are overly-aggressive and aimed at a very long time contributor to this board. One, who I might add, is highly respected for the fair and open-minded approach he takes towards other posters.

You'll notice that most of the rest of us have been encouraging and have offered helpful suggestions.

You, OTOH, jump in with both barrels blazing in an attempt to put somebody you don't know, whose ethics you know nothing about, and whose history as an outstanding and committed official in other sports you are completely ignorant of down for the sins of others.

As for using real names on here... Sadly the use of real names in an internet forum has come back to haunt many people in many different ways. And the posting of one's credentials in one's signature line can just as easily come across as being pompous.

I'm just saying.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

Maybe you forget that I don't know who you are...

That's right. You have no idea who I am. And yet, your first post directed at me was to blast away at me with both barrels blazing. Very helpful.

you're profile doesn't even list your real name... so how am I to know if this is your 1st, 40th or 10,000th volleyball match?

You can't. And yet, your first post directed at me was to blast away at me with both barrels blazing.

You talk about my over-the-top emotion... I say it's appropriately proportionate to your comments.

And I say it's not. You must be a joy to work with.

When an official says "I honestly don't even try to do it (look for back row attack) in a match"...

Read the rest of the sentence, Brainiac, instead of taking things out of context.

You'd throw me out for being upset that you "don't even try" to look for illegal back-row-attack's?

Can you even read?!?! Good grief. I'd throw you out for "blowing a gasket", which I'm guessing would be excessively demonstrative. If you were simply to yell "That was back row!", you probably wouldn't get tossed. Although around my neck of the woods, yelling tends to get carded.

You said "do you think I'm doing the Olympics" and I say it doesn't matter what age or performance level, an illegal back-row-attack is illegal, no matter what.

Of course it's illegal. Would I love to be as amazingly awesome as you, and catch them all? Of course I would. But you know what? I'm not that amazingly awesome in my 2nd season.

And finally, to answer your question about the oath, in NFHS it's called the Officials Code of Ethics, in NCAA it's called the Code of Ethical and Professional Conduct, and in USAV it's called Philosophy of Rules and Refereeing - The Referee within this Framework.

So you're saying that you didn't actually take an oath. Right? That was simply more grandstanding to make your emotional rant seem more compelling.

I truly don't appreciate your comments such as "[I]Did you really take an officiating oath?!?!

Oh, oh, let me play!! Guess how many of your comments I appreciated!! Go ahead. Take a guess!!

So, if you're standing so tall with your thoughtless sarcastic remarks, why won"t you publish your REAL name? I did.

I actually have a very good reason for not using my real name, not that it's any of your business. And it wouldn't make any difference if I did use my real name, because there's no way for you to know if I really am who I say I am.

One thing I do know, however, is that you're a putz. Welcome to Ignoreville. Population, you.

[Back In The Saddle]

Wow, Scrappy actually added somebody to his ignore list?

[Andy]

I'll chime in with a few comments here.....

Retro - Think back (a long time, I am guessing) to when you started officiating VB....If you are anything like the rest of us, it probably was overwhelming with all of the stuff you have to mentally keep track of. Hell, it took me a good three years before I was comfortable calling illegal contacts consistently. Like MCBear, it was another two years or so before the light bulb came on and I was recognizing back row players and being aware of the BRAs and BRBs. Scrappy doesn't have the attitude of he's just not going to call it because he doesn't like the rule, he's just not comfortable with that aspect of the game yet, like many new VB officials. He'll get there, with help and encouragement from people that have gone before him. Think about this - if he was a crappy official who didn't care, he probably wouldn't even be here on the board to begin with.

Scrappy - Hang in there. Keep working. It will become instinct for you at some point. Like you, I was a longtime basketball official that took up VB. Like I said above, it probably took me a good five seasons to get comfortable as a VB official. I'm still trying to improve, but I feel confident in my abilities. There has been some good advice in this thread - try some of it out, keep what works and toss the rest. It will get better.

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

You must be a joy to work with. Read the rest of the sentence, Brainiac, instead of taking things out of context. Can you even read?!?! Good grief. One thing I do know, however, is that you're a putz. Welcome to Ignoreville. Population, you.

In his first post, Scrapper really did say he doesn't even try to look for illegal back-row attacks, he finds the whole thing unnecessary, and it just makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated.

The sad part is that, on this officials forum, I was the only voice that spoke up and said that his disregard towards enforcing the 'rules of play' is wrong, and I provided reasoning... and no one yet vocally agreed with me. On the contrary, Back In The Saddle is turning the heat on me... for what? For insisting that an official do their job properly? Not one single forum member said anything even close to, Retrozetti (Michael) has a point, illegal back-row attacks need to be called.

Again, it's not that Scrapper said he is having trouble finding BR players, I can very easily work with that... instead, he said he "doesn't even try"... and I will always have a problem with that.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

When you are up, remember that you need to signal legal BRA's.

Before my match on Tuesday, I was actually just talking to my partner about the signaling aspect of this. He said that at a college camp he went to this summer, one of the observers told him not to signal the legal BRA's very often because it can alert the other team to who is in the back row.

So, assuming that I ever get the hang of seeing it in the first place, what do you folks consider to be proper signaling of legal BRA's? When should you do it and when not?