Identifying illegal back row attacks

[Scrapper1]

I know I said I was going to ignore you, and after this I really am, but this is just too priceless to pass up.

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

The sad part is that, on this officials forum, I was the only voice that spoke up and said that his disregard towards enforcing the 'rules of play' is wrong

And this, Michael, is where perceptive people "take a hint". Instead of continuing to rant against me and grossly misrepresent my comments, ask yourself why no one has rushed in to agree with you. Quite likely, it is because you are not correct in the matter.

Not one single forum member said anything even close to, Retrozetti (Michael) has a point, illegal back-row attacks need to be called.

To paraphrase John McEnroe: You cannot be serious!!!! Are you absolutely blind? What is your reading level? Not only did someone say it, I said it!!! I said,

Of course it's illegal. Would I love to be as amazingly awesome as you, and catch them all? Of course I would.

Back row attacks should be called. I would love to catch them all!!! Are you happy? Do you feel like now you win something? They should be called. I am simply confessing that I can't do it, and I'm afraid that if I try, I will miss obvious ball-handling violations.

Now, I really am putting you on the ignore list. Putz.

[FMadera]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

So, assuming that I ever get the hang of seeing it in the first place, what do you folks consider to be proper signaling of legal BRA's? When should you do it and when not?

If it's close that you might need to clarify why you didn't call it illegal, you can go ahead and signal it. If it's not close to being illegal (freeball over, player is at the end line, etc.), there's no need to signal it.

Contrary to popular belief, you don't have to signal it EVERY time a back row player attacks the ball legally. It should be only for clarification.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by FMadera

If it's close that you might need to clarify why you didn't call it illegal, you can go ahead and signal it. If it's not close to being illegal (freeball over, player is at the end line, etc.), there's no need to signal it.

It should be only for clarification.

That makes 100% sense. Thanks.

[DaveASA/FED]

I agree with FMadera only call it when they are close to the attack line when they hit the ball, or close to being over the net if they happen to be in front of the attack line.

I will add one thing to that, I call it every time the Libero contacts the ball over her head (like an attack) sending it to the other side of the net. Since she can't contact the ball over the height of the net anywhere on the court I signal "safe" no matter where she is in reguards to the attack line, thus stating the obvious that I judge the ball was below the height of the net when she contacted it.

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Brainiac... Can you even read?!?! One thing I do know, however, is that you're a putz. Welcome to Ignoreville. Population, you.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

To paraphrase John McEnroe: You cannot be serious!!!! Are you absolutely blind? What is your reading level?
Now, I really am putting you on the ignore list. Putz.

... not once have I lowered myself to name-calling nor throwing insults, not once.

Changing the subject, if you have retracted your comment about "not even trying" to look for illegal back-row attacks, and instead want to learn to monitor back-row players, then I too wish you the best success. The more knowledged you are about the rules, the more "good" experience you gather, and with the right mentor and strong officials around you that you probe for suggestions and improvements, the better the official you become. Everyone always has room for improvement

You mentioned that you're ignoring me, but maybe the message will get to you... Your assigners can be your strongest guides... especially with the minimal experience you have thus far. Your assigner(s) will be able to properly place you in the best matches to help you grow while not putting you in over you head, and they can also put you with strong officials that can observe you with a fresh perspective and help you to improve in ways that are customized to your needs.

Finally, thank you Andy for mentioning this "Think about this - if he was a crappy official who didn't care, he probably wouldn't even be here on the board to begin with." Thank you, very true, and it runs parallel with something I wrote to BearFan a while back:

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

BearfanMike20,
You are already starting off on the best foot. Though you obviously are at the infancy stages of officiating volleyball, your future with this sport is highly promising... and I think you'll get a lot farther a lot faster, and in the next few years surpass plenty of volleyball officials. Why? Simply because you are "seeking advice" ! ! ! When you experience an official who thinks they know everything, and worse, they stop learning and improving... that is the absolute worst. So, take the great advice these officials gave you, keep asking questions and advice, and keep that open and inquisitive mind. A last bit of advice from me: Read, re-read, and re-read the casebook of rulings for your area, and secondly, ask the upper level officials around your area about a recommended official to observe (and maybe mentor you)... the officials know who are the best officials. I wish you success.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

... not once have I lowered myself to name-calling nor throwing insults, not once.

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

2. You severely tarnish the trust given to the officials by the sporting administration and schools/clubs. YOUR lack of desire to enforce the printed rules makes ALL OF US look bad. Can you think of a basketball official in the news lately?

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

As an official opting to ignore definite faults that cause an "absolute unfair advantage" to the attacking team, he is failing at his duties, cheating the players of a fairly officiated match, and defying his officiating oath. Scrapper cannot be defended

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

I'm serious when I say that you need to either change your attitude or hang up your whistle.

Perhaps you roll differently in Aurora, IL, but from my perspective I find the comments quoted above to be quite insulting. Comparing Scrapper to Tim Donaghy? Are you serious?

You seem surprised that nobody has stepped up to support your message. I think you're misreading the situation. Many have posted helpful encouragement and suggestions that are completely in agreement with your message. But nobody wants to be associated with your tone.

But since you seem to need actual "you were right" validation, let me be the first to say:

Retrozetti (Michael) has a point, illegal back-row attacks need to be called.

I must say one other statement you made speaks volumes to me:

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

There are officials that bust their butt to try and do their best, and then there are those that have posted on other officiating boards here that say "if you want to take up another sport, officiate volleyball, it's easy money."

I was part of that discussion. Some very serious volleyball guys did their best to convince the basketball guys that volleyball is harder. They were not well received by some. That really seems to have stuck in your craw. Are you sure you haven't automatically assumed that Scrapper is an "easy money" man simply because he's a basketball ref?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

2) I use the wheel as a line up tool and glancing down I can get back row players in my head quick

Ok, I used the wheel in my game tonight (I was R2 for the varsity). It was not horrible, but I had two problems.

1) I felt like I didn't really have enough time between points to use it effectively. I couldn't write down the subs, for example. And also, while it helped me identify the back row players, I had a much harder time remembering who was supposed to be "opposite" each other. So the result was that I had a grasp of the back row, but had no idea if the front row was aligned properly.

2) First words out of my partner's mouth after the match (when I asked if he had any things for me to work on), "Try to get out of the habit of using the wheel." It was not said in a condescending way. He said that it's too easy to become dependent on it, so it's better just to figure it out without using the wheel at all.

So now, once again, I don't know what do.

BTW, this partner was excellent to work with. Helpful when asked, but not overbearing or overly-critical. He called a couple position faults when I was unsure, but other than that he let me live and die with my own calls.

He also happens to be the boys' volleyball assignor in the Spring. I'm not sure if I helped or hurt my cause today.

[jkumpire]

If you get comfortable with the wheel use it. Your assigner is not going to mark you down and stick you only with MS games if you use it. the idea is to get the call right, not always how you get there.

AS to using the BRA sign, our officials are right, you do not always have to use the legal BRA sign, but you have leeway on when to use it:

Case book/Manual p. 70:

"7. LEGAL BACK-ROW ATTACK — Arm on attacker’s side of
net is extended parallel to the floor at chest level, palm
down. Then make one slight horizontal sweeping motion
when, in the judgment of the official, it is needed to
indicate a legal back row attacker."

If you are learning to see BRA's use the sign when in your judgment you need to acknowledge the BRA. For our veteran officials, it won't be as often as you. But until you have it down, IMO call it when you see it no matter what.
"Best practice" says you use when you need to, I agree. And you will use it less and less over time, until you can easily strive for best practice every time.

[Back In The Saddle]

It took me a couple of matches to get comfortable using the wheel. And, as you witnessed, it becomes less effective if your partner has a quick tempo. Here's a few things I've done to adapt.

* I've gone to matches on my non-game days to practice using it. That has helped me get faster at using it.
* I keep my pencil in my front pocket, always open (I use bullet pencils), where I can reach it very quickly.
* I circle the setter, kinda dark so I can see at a glance where she's supposed to be.
* In a blank area of the card I write the setter and her opposite's numbers, as a fraction. So I don't have to "find" them on the wheel when I need a quick memory jog.
* I note subs on my wheel while I'm reporting them to the table. I don't give the court back until I've recorded them (I try not to slow my partner's tempo, but I've got work to do too).
* I don't erase subs when the original player returns. So I'm never writing a sub down more than once. I may pick up the wrong number the first time I glance at the card, but when I realize I'm seeing the wrong player, I know exactly where to glance back to on the card to pick up the right one.
* I draw a triangle in the pie slice where the libero serves. That's helped me catch the libero serving in multiple positions before. Many scorekeepers don't know about this rule and therefore can't help you out.
* Everything written after the game begins is kinda chicken scratch because I'm hurrying, but as long as I can make it out...
* Sometimes I have to wait a point or two before I have time to note something on my wheel, but there's always a 2-3 second break soon you can use
* I ask my scorekeeper before the game to be prepared to tell me who the next server is for either team. So if I'm suddenly unsure my wheel is up to date, I can quickly verify.
* I'll be danged if I don't consistently forget to advance my wheel whenever there's a side out and a sub at the same time. Grrrr

It's not perfect. But I'm a LOT better with it than without it. With use, some things have begun to click. With repetition I've learned where to expect to find the setter in each position. Now, instead of holding up the card searching the floor, the wheel reminds me of her position and I know where to look. It's starting to become automatic to pick up the number of the most obvious overlap when I get the setter's position. With this automaticity, now I have time to glance back at the wheel to pick up the number of the less obvious overlap. After a while the players that lead and follow the setter are committed to memory. That allows me, using the card and what the card has helped me commit to memory, to very quickly verify four of the six players' locations before the serve.

Next emphasis for me, I think, is tracking front row/back row better. I already keep track of my setter, and usually her opposite (if I haven't consciously noted the opposite's location, I at least recognize her and know she's opposite). So it should be a fairly straightforward leap to knowing whether her leader and follower are also FR/BR. Having said that, you watch...it'll take 3 more years to get that part

If a rally goes more than 2-3 points, the wheel is starting to go in my pocket as I know that alignment and don't need the card.

I expect I will eventually be able to track and recognize enough on my own that the wheel will spend most of the time in my pocket. Eventually I'll "get lazy" and stop bothering to fill in the lineup, since I'm not really using it. Then I'll stop carrying it altogether. Maybe that'll be this season, maybe not.

I wouldn't worry too much about what your P said, at least not today. He's right in that we shouldn't become utterly dependent on it. But why not use it to speed the process of no longer needing it.

Just my $0.025

[refnrev]

BITS,
I never got comfortable using the wheel... it just took too much time and was hard for me to keep up with subs on it... so I stuck to 3x5 cards. What helps me, even though it's still not something I can see in my sleep like offiside in soccer, is to follow the big hitters rather than setters. I've found that a really good big hitter up front will often try to be a really good big hitter from the back row in front of the attack line. I was actually able to see pretty clearly some close but legal BR attacks. As for Scrappy, unless he's got us all hoodwinked, he's a good official who takes officiating seriously and wants to get better in all sports.
Scrappy, it does get easier every game every year for me. I think it will you, too. Also, HS V demands that you see it much more than Jr. High so it becomes easier as you must be more focused. rr

[Scrapper1]

Woo-hoo!!

Used the wheel again today as R2 and had a much easier time of it. I'm starting to get a little rhythm for how to use it and how to check it.

I even recognized a back row attack, though it was legal because the ball was clearly below the level of the net. (I even practice my "legal" signal, although I probably shouldn't give it as R2.)

Only problem was that it got really complicated in the 5th set when the teams switched sides of the court. Teams were on the wrong side of the wheel, and were rotating the wrong direction. . .

Overall, it was a tremendous help.

[refnrev]

I hated it when I got it written backwards. I also had one that turned very easily and would get into the wrong position. That always made life very interesting! My 3x5 cards just don't do that.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Woo-hoo!!

Used the wheel again today as R2 and had a much easier time of it. I'm starting to get a little rhythm for how to use it and how to check it.

I even recognized a back row attack, though it was legal because the ball was clearly below the level of the net. (I even practice my "legal" signal, although I probably shouldn't give it as R2.)

Only problem was that it got really complicated in the 5th set when the teams switched sides of the court. Teams were on the wrong side of the wheel, and were rotating the wrong direction. . .

Overall, it was a tremendous help.

See the wheel is not all bad! Not sure if I put it here but I have two wheels (one given to me by an official that had it 10 years and never used it). When I get to a match I clean the cards from the last match (lazy when its over I throw it in my bag and get home) so I take my big (1" X 1/2") eraser and I go over the whole card getting it clean, both cards. Then I write one team on the right side of card 1 and the left side of card 2, then fill in team 2 on the other sides of the cards. At the captains meeting I take the card that will be right for me that game (team 1 on left side) to meeting, write captains on the their correct side and mark who has first serve (more important than you think more later on that). then when they are warming up I will set the wheel, and write at the top 1st game. This tells me that this card is the one to use for game 1, 3 and 5 if they switch sides. The 2nd card will be correct for the 2,4 and 5 if they don't switch sides.

Now on setting the wheel. My card has numbers in the small pie pieces near the center, these are the server numbers, so the team with first serve gets set with number 1 in the RB spot. Other team is set with number 1 in RF. Now we are ready to to get the game started. During the game it is possible to forget to rotate the wheel, or to over rotate or move the wheel during a long rally(lots of peoples fear in using these cards). Well one thing I have figured out, simply when you think about it, is that if the team with first serve is serving, they should be 1 spot ahead of the other team. Meaning if 1st serve team is serving and their 3rd position (numbers in pie) is serving, then team 2 should have their 2nd position (number in pie) in the RB spot, so that the next time they get the serve their 3rd position player will be serving. Along this line, if the team without first serve is serving then the positon numbers in RB should be the same. So if positon number 4 is serving for the team that did NOT serve first then the other team should also have position 4 in the RB spot. This helps check yourself to ensure you are with the proper rotation. Also if you know setter is front left look down is she on your card?

Knowing where they are is easy if you have the card setup right. if you are R2 and the fold in the card is the net, the on the left court LF is away from you toward the net, LB is away from you away from the net, etc on the right side LF is right next to you toward the net. Don't over think it, just look at the card and think of it being an overhead drawing of where the players are suppose to be.

PS....I would NOT attempt to call a game with the players backwards, team A to my right but on the left of the card...been there done that it sucks!! I have gotten down from the ladder (I am going to use the wheel on the ladder till then quit paying me to officiate because of it) and gotten my other card before when I had grabbed the wrong one.....my mind only stretches so far!!!

[FMadera]

Ok, keeping in mind, I don't use the wheel, never will, etc...

How about just writing in the lineups for each time (assuming you're using NCAA rules where teams switch) twice...one regular, and once upside down. Then rotate the wheel 180 degrees after the switch and...you should have your teams back where they belong, or at least, pretty close?

I think the red sixth might be off, but it's a start, at least...

[chartrusepengui]

I switched from card to wheel a couple seasons ago and had a problem. First Varsity Tri I used marker and marked the wheel. It was very hot and humid. Part way into the second set - coach asked for lineup check. I looked at wheel and saw .......... nothing. Everything was gone.

Since then I've stuck to cards. Tried doing both once but still had the problem on hot days. Don't know if it was just heat and humidity or sweaty hand (no ink on hand) or what but I won't ever go back again. I like the card and pencil!