Identifying illegal back row attacks

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

And I'll say it point blank... as an official, you're not supposed to "choose to call the faults that you want, and allow other faults because you don't even try and you find it unnecessary."

I'm "sure" (based on conversations with him in other forums) that Scrapper meant that if he were made "god of the volleyball rules" that he would CHANGE the rules to allow any offensive and defensive line-up / block / attack, except that he'd still require the 6 players (and subs) to take turns serving.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm "sure" (based on conversations with him in other forums) that Scrapper meant that if he were made "god of the volleyball rules" that he would CHANGE the rules to allow any offensive and defensive line-up / block / attack, except that he'd still require the 6 players (and subs) to take turns serving.

That was my impression of his post as well.

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I'm "sure" (based on conversations with him in other forums) that Scrapper meant that if he were made "god of the volleyball rules" that he would CHANGE the rules to allow any offensive and defensive line-up / block / attack, except that he'd still require the 6 players (and subs) to take turns serving.

Hi Bob. Unfortunately, you are misunderstanding what Scrapper said... he didn't say "if"... his exact words are, "I honestly don't even try to do it in a match." He "is" doing this presently. As an official opting to ignore definite faults that cause an "absolute unfair advantage" to the attacking team, he is failing at his duties, cheating the players of a fairly officiated match, and defying his officiating oath. Scrapper cannot be defended for "choosing" to poorly perform his duties... it is an ongoing learning process... and if you choose to stop improving and opt instead to allow faults to occur unpenalized, it is time to hang up the whistle, for the sake of the sport, the teams, and the officials.

[MCBear]

for me to recognize a back-row attack/back-row block and once I had done it, I kept trying to figure out how I had done it. I struggled with it for the whole fifth season (can you say 1987???).

When someone told me to keep track of the setter, things suddenly became a LOT clearer. I was able to begin working with my wheel to recognize and even to call the violation.

It was 1995, I think, when I first became aware that I needed to figure out a method of tracking all six service rotations l This was hastened by an incident in a college match where my partner was late and did not arrive until the third game of the match. I had no problems during the first two games, but during the third, there was a collision under the net. After sorting things out and be assured that neither player was injured, we played on. The visiting team was serving and, when I looked at the server, something just didn't look right to me. I asked my partner if this was the correct server and he said "yes". I still wasn't sure so I asked again and he still said, "yes?" We played on and the visitor ended up winning the third game (they had been down 2-0 before this game). I got down off the stand and went across to the table because I had been seeing match-ups during the serves that I had not been seeing all night previously. I got to the scoretable and found out that the person doing the scoring had NO IDEA how to do book! She had written some things downs during the match to this point, but had not recorded the service procedure correctly in a single game prior to this. Bottom line is that this particular game, with its wrong rotations not caught, I began learning how to track all six rotations for both teams on the court so that I would not get burned again.

[Back In The Saddle]

And how do you track all six?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by MCBear

When someone told me to keep track of the setter, things suddenly became a LOT clearer. I was able to begin working with my wheel to recognize and even to call the violation.

I have also heard about finding the setter. And I have tried in warm-ups to identify the setters, etc. I just can't hold it in my brain with the other stuff.

And I don't use a wheel. I have one, but nobody around here uses it. And I did try it last year, but I just couldn't get the hang of it. Maybe I'll try again tomorrow.

If I can keep track of it 4 years from now, I will consider that a minor miracle. But I'll try the wheel tomorrow and see if that helps.

[Back In The Saddle]

I have found the wheel very helpful, Scrappy. It's been an investment in time/effort to learn to use it. But it's paid off to this point.

Of course, you can't use it (the same way) on the ladder. But using the wheel when I'm down has helped me with recognizing setter and opposite when I'm up. And I'm getting to the point where I can often (perhaps even usually?) determine if the setter is BR or FR from where she sets up in the alignment. I realize there are other alignments I'm not familiar with yet, but it's a start.

[refnrev]

Scrappy,
I share your diffficulty in seeing BR at times. One thing that helps is if you have one girl who is just absolutely heads and houlders better at kills and spikes than the others, I follow her to the BR and see who's beside her. But honestly, I depend a great deal on my patners and let them know I am doing so before the match begins. I have some partners who can see everything with one eye close and one eye squinted... they are that good. I watch them and rely on them a lot!!

[MCBear]

Scrapper, as BITS said, it takes time and effort. The advantage you have is that you have blown a whistle in basketball, so you know how to do one of the most important facets of the game.

I have learned (due to working with electric motor parts and having to know their ID numbers by heart) to memorize the numbers of the players who are on the court for both teams. Now, I will admit that I have gotten lazy as I have aged, so I actually look to see where my floor captain is located, then I look for each team's setter (if the captain and setter are the same, so much better!) Then I look to see who the first server for each team is. Once I know who is "I", and where my setters are in the rotation, I don't have too much more to worry about.

Plus, here is a little secret that no one ever tells newbies - those back-row players try to get away with illegal stuff! Can you imagine? They actually try to get stuff by us when we are unsure about where they are on the court.

Here is the way to foil those shifty little critters. After they have hit the ball or blocked the ball back to the other side of the net, watch where the player goes...if they drop back on defense, they ARE back-row and you can blow the whistle and give the BRA signal. One other thing you can do is wait until the play is over and then watch where your suspect player goes to on the court. If she goes to CB or LB or LF, guess what? She was a back-row player and you can call the illegal contact up until the time that you beckon for the next serve (something they don't mention in the training manuals!!!).

Hope those suggestions help you out, Scrapper. BTW, one reason you can't see the back-row attack/block is because I am betting that you say that you can't with emotion. As long as you vehemently say that you can't see it, my friend, you never will...it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Good luck!

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by MCBear

Hope those suggestions help you out, Scrapper.

I will try to experiment with them as the season progresses. I'll try the wheel tomorrow as well.

BTW, one reason you can't see the back-row attack/block is because I am betting that you say that you can't with emotion.

Honestly, when I originally said it in this thread, it was a simple statement of fact. I can't see it. I can't process all the information. I only got emotional when Mike jumped all over me and grossly misrepresented my original comments.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Of course, you can't use it (the same way) on the ladder.

I beg to differ! I use the wheel when I am the up official. I take a big binder clip, one of those black C shaped things with chrome extensions that will fold either way, and I clip that baby on the net, center on the rope so it kind of hangs to either side of the rope and I can easily grab the wheel and turn it as the sides rotate! Works great. It may be a security blanket for me but I am SO much more in the game when I have it up there with me. Also I can glance down during the action and see if I missed something(second guess if 6 was back row). Also I have yet to have the teams waiting on me this year to write down a sub on my wheel. One more tip since we are on the wheel kick, get a 2nd one. Now you have can have one with team A on the right team B on the left and one with team B on the right and A on the left. Great thing is a lot of teams dont change their lineups so after the 1st game erase the subs from the outer ring and you usually have your card all ready for game 3!

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

I beg to differ! I use the wheel when I am the up official. I take a big binder clip, one of those black C shaped things with chrome extensions that will fold either way, and I clip that baby on the net, center on the rope so it kind of hangs to either side of the rope and I can easily grab the wheel and turn it as the sides rotate! Works great. It may be a security blanket for me but I am SO much more in the game when I have it up there with me. Also I can glance down during the action and see if I missed something(second guess if 6 was back row). Also I have yet to have the teams waiting on me this year to write down a sub on my wheel. One more tip since we are on the wheel kick, get a 2nd one. Now you have can have one with team A on the right team B on the left and one with team B on the right and A on the left. Great thing is a lot of teams dont change their lineups so after the 1st game erase the subs from the outer ring and you usually have your card all ready for game 3!

Consider yourself lucky Here we have been told specifically we're not allowed to use a wheel or card as R1.

That said, I still take it up with me. Having noted who the setters are during warmups, I note the opposites while R2 is checking lineups. Then the thing goes in my pocket, until I need a quick check. I also note subs for either of those players as they occur.

It usually doesn't take too long to identify a pattern to how the coach subs the setter and opposite. Sometimes it's never. Sometimes it's subbing a hitter for the setter when she rotates to the front in a 6-2. Sometimes it's swapping a blocker for a passer as the opposite in a 5-1 rotates to the front. Those substitutions help me, because I recognize that if player X is in the game, then my setter is back row, while if player Y is in, my setter is front row.

Oh, and I also write down who won each game. I can't ever seem to remember from game to game. And I don't want everybody's final impression of me to be that I told everybody to switch sides when it was end of match, or vice versa.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Retrozetti

he is failing at his duties, cheating the players of a fairly officiated match, and defying his officiating oath.

Did you really take an officiating oath?!?! Did they ask you to raise your right hand and place your left hand on a rule book that's been passed down through 5 generations of your family? Was it a chief justice or merely a justice of the peace who administered your oath?

If you didn't have your name in your signature line, I'd say you were a drama queen. Relax a little bit and don't be so quick to pile on a fellow official.

I'm primarily a college basketball official. I work damn hard at being as good as I can be. I understand that an official gives his best effort every time out, regardless of the level of the competition.

However, this is my SECOND year of officiating volleyball. I have a total of about 40 matches under my belt. So my best effort falls well short of most people's.

So take that information for what it's worth. You can dial down your rhetoric, or I can put you on my ignore list. I couldn't care less which one happens.

[Retrozetti]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Did you really take an officiating oath?!?! Did they ask you to raise your right hand and place your left hand on a rule book that's been passed down through 5 generations of your family? Was it a chief justice or merely a justice of the peace who administered your oath?

If you didn't have your name in your signature line, I'd say you were a drama queen. Relax a little bit and don't be so quick to pile on a fellow official.

I'm primarily a college basketball official. I work damn hard at being as good as I can be. I understand that an official gives his best effort every time out, regardless of the level of the competition.

However, this is my SECOND year of officiating volleyball. I have a total of about 40 matches under my belt. So my best effort falls well short of most people's.

So take that information for what it's worth. You can dial down your rhetoric, or I can put you on my ignore list. I couldn't care less which one happens.

There are officials that bust their butt to try and do their best, and then there are those that have posted on other officiating boards here that say "if you want to take up another sport, officiate volleyball, it's easy money." And, unfortunately, I've had the displeasure to have those officials as partners. Maybe you forget that I don't know who you are... you said you'd call me a "drama queen" if my signature wasn't displayed, and I actually provide plenty of information of who I am and what level I'm at... you're profile doesn't even list your real name... so how am I to know if this is your 1st, 40th or 10,000th volleyball match? But however long or short you've been officiating volleyball, it's still important to "try to improve." You talk about my over-the-top emotion... I say it's appropriately proportionate to your comments. When an official says "I honestly don't even try to do it (look for back row attack) in a match"... you didn't say that you're struggling with learning it... hey, anyone who's learning and having trouble deserves support and guidance. BUT, anyone who says they "don't even try" and then follow up with "Personally, I find the whole thing unnecessary" and then also says "it just makes administration of the game unnecessarily complicated" well, I have a HUGE problem with that attitude. Also, when I told you that I'd blow a gasket if I was a coach having you not even trying to call back row attacks, think about what you replied to me, you said "And I'll toss you from the gym faster than you can say "back row attack". And you'll be fully deserving of it." Do you hear yourself? You'd throw me out for being upset that you "don't even try" to look for illegal back-row-attack's? Guess what, that's your job! I'm serious when I say that you need to either change your attitude or hang up your whistle. You said "do you think I'm doing the Olympics" and I say it doesn't matter what age or performance level, an illegal back-row-attack is illegal, no matter what. And finally, to answer your question about the oath, in NFHS it's called the Officials Code of Ethics, in NCAA it's called the Code of Ethical and Professional Conduct, and in USAV it's called Philosophy of Rules and Refereeing - The Referee within this Framework. So while your mocking my comments, my defense of proper officiating, and my disdain of poor attitudes and poor officiating lacking any desire to improve, I truly don't appreciate your comments such as "Did you really take an officiating oath?!?! Did they ask you to raise your right hand and place your left hand on a rule book that's been passed down through 5 generations of your family? Was it a chief justice or merely a justice of the peace who administered your oath?" So, if you're standing so tall with your thoughtless sarcastic remarks, why won"t you publish your REAL name? I did.

[Back In The Saddle]

Lighten up, Francis.

You've been here for what, like 2 weeks and have contributed a whopping 23 posts. The last two of which seriously are overly-aggressive and aimed at a very long time contributor to this board. One, who I might add, is highly respected for the fair and open-minded approach he takes towards other posters.

You'll notice that most of the rest of us have been encouraging and have offered helpful suggestions.

You, OTOH, jump in with both barrels blazing in an attempt to put somebody you don't know, whose ethics you know nothing about, and whose history as an outstanding and committed official in other sports you are completely ignorant of down for the sins of others.

As for using real names on here... Sadly the use of real names in an internet forum has come back to haunt many people in many different ways. And the posting of one's credentials in one's signature line can just as easily come across as being pompous.

I'm just saying.