The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Volleyball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 11, 2019, 11:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 734
3rd Time Out

Coach team A requests and is granted a 3rd TO in a set. This is an Unnecessary Delay. Does it immediately result in a Loss of Rally/Point awarded?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 12, 2019, 06:57am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
Does it immediately result in a Loss of Rally/Point awarded?
Your post stated that the penalty was Unnecessary Delay. If you know the proper penalty for that, then you answered your own question.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 12, 2019, 07:59am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 624
Send a message via ICQ to FMadera Send a message via AIM to FMadera Send a message via Yahoo to FMadera
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
Coach team A requests and is granted a 3rd TO in a set. This is an Unnecessary Delay. Does it immediately result in a Loss of Rally/Point awarded?
Warning: No
Penalty: Yes

Your question doesn't state if it's the first UD of the set/match (depending on rule set), which is kind of a huge piece of information.
__________________
Felix A. Madera
USAV Indoor National / Beach Zonal Referee
FIVB Qualified International Scorer
PAVO National Referee / Certified Line Judge/Scorer
WIAA/IHSA Volleyball Referee
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 12, 2019, 10:46pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 734
This was the 1st UD of set/match. So I read that this should be a Administration Yellow card.
Team A was losing 21-24 and Team B had the serve at the time of the TO request.
So allow the minute TO to exist. Apply a yellow card to team A. Return with Team B serving for the match point.
Also Coach of Team A would still be allowed to stand to coach.
If this is the procedure, then this is a minor slap on the wrist that allows Team A to regroup and slow down Team B
NFHS rules
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 13, 2019, 07:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 40
The situation as described is really a lot more than simply requesting a timeout in excess of the number allowed and I believe warrants a penalty more severe than an administrative yellow card. Knowing that the coach was out of time outs and assuming that you had informed him of that fact after the team took their second one, my approach would be to practice preventive officiating. Suddenly develop poor hearing. You know what the coach is trying to do so just ignore him/her. If the coach persists and is standing outside of the legal coaching area and/or is loud/boisterous to the point where the request can no longer be ignored, penalize it for what it really is - unsporting conduct. Issue a red card, set over. This approach would be supported by applying Rule 12.2.1 (acting in unsporting manner) or 12.2.8.k (making excessive requests designed to disrupt set).
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 13, 2019, 07:34am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoochy View Post
This was the 1st UD of set/match. So I read that this should be a Administration Yellow card.
Team A was losing 21-24 and Team B had the serve at the time of the TO request.
So allow the minute TO to exist. Apply a yellow card to team A. Return with Team B serving for the match point.
Also Coach of Team A would still be allowed to stand to coach.
If this is the procedure, then this is a minor slap on the wrist that allows Team A to regroup and slow down Team B
NFHS rules
That's not the procedure.

Tell the coach he's used his two timeouts.
If s/he insists, blow the whistle, show the YUD signal, and give the court right back to R1 who can beckon with (almost) no interruption.

After the point, have the scorekeeper (if s/he didn't already) record the delay -- this won't take any longer than any needed action to get the ball back to the next server (and, heck, it might be the end of the set, so there's ltos of time)
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 14, 2019, 08:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 734
Sorry genetoy71 and bob jenkins. I was not the R2. I do not know if the Coach was informed when they took their 2nd TO. I do not think the R2 replied to the Coach that they did not have any TO's remaining. The R2 immediately accepted the request of the 3rd TO. I knew it was an Unnecessary Delay. I did not know how to apply the situation. He came walking to me. Told me it was the 3rd TO and said game over and walked away. I was not sure of the ruling, so after the game I read the rule book and asked the question.
I appreciate all of your "you could have' and 'you should have' comments. It is too late I have gone home. We cannot redo the play. We can only learn from our mistakes
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 15, 2019, 02:17pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
That's not the procedure.

Tell the coach he's used his two timeouts.
If s/he insists, blow the whistle, show the YUD signal, and give the court right back to R1 who can beckon with (almost) no interruption.

After the point, have the scorekeeper (if s/he didn't already) record the delay -- this won't take any longer than any needed action to get the ball back to the next server (and, heck, it might be the end of the set, so there's ltos of time)
Doesn't the R1 have to inform the captain what the card is for?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 16, 2019, 12:32am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
That's not the procedure.

Tell the coach he's used his two timeouts.
If s/he insists, blow the whistle, show the YUD signal, and give the court right back to R1 who can beckon with (almost) no interruption.

After the point, have the scorekeeper (if s/he didn't already) record the delay -- this won't take any longer than any needed action to get the ball back to the next server (and, heck, it might be the end of the set, so there's ltos of time)
This isn't proper procedure either. The R2 is supposed to communicate with the scorer to assure the UD is properly noted on the score sheet. The UD needs to be recorded immediately.

We have a coach in my area that has developed a plan to use his UD Yellow's carefully and takes advantage of rules to give his team a break or get a "quick" time out.

Normally what he will do is send a sub to the substitution zone, then withdraw the substitution, resulting in an UD issuance. Since the R2 is required to make sure it is noted on the scoresheet, it gives him a few seconds to talk to his team before it is administered.

Our state association has been notified about this and has basically told our officials association that there is nothing to prevent him from doing it. They have said that it should not be considered as unsportsmanlike conduct because it is a situation covered within another area of the rules. (The UD rules).
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 16, 2019, 08:26am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Doesn't the R1 have to inform the captain what the card is for?
not for YUD, I don't think. Possibly for a YC for misconduct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
This isn't proper procedure either. The R2 is supposed to communicate with the scorer to assure the UD is properly noted on the score sheet. The UD needs to be recorded immediately.

We have a coach in my area that has developed a plan to use his UD Yellow's carefully and takes advantage of rules to give his team a break or get a "quick" time out.

Normally what he will do is send a sub to the substitution zone, then withdraw the substitution, resulting in an UD issuance. Since the R2 is required to make sure it is noted on the scoresheet, it gives him a few seconds to talk to his team before it is administered.

Our state association has been notified about this and has basically told our officials association that there is nothing to prevent him from doing it. They have said that it should not be considered as unsportsmanlike conduct because it is a situation covered within another area of the rules. (The UD rules).
Fair enough. Different areas do it differently. We would try to minimize the coach breaking momentum, getting additional time by having the R note the YUD and getting the action resumed ASAP and catching up on the scoresheet a bit later (unless the scorekeeper is on his / her toes and gets it recorded right away). I agree it's not unsporting conduct.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 16, 2019, 01:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
...I agree it's not unsporting conduct.
Just curious - how would you interpret Rule 12 (Conduct) - 12.2.8.k: "Making any excessive requests designed to disrupt the set."?

If the number of timeouts per set is two and the coach purposefully requests more than two in order to play head games with the server, is this not "making an excessive request designed to disrupt the set"?

One other thing that I find odd that is sort of getting lost in this discussion thread - two JV/V officials working together and neither knew the proper penalty for a first UD in a set. It certainly is not point/loss of rally.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 16, 2019, 01:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 624
Send a message via ICQ to FMadera Send a message via AIM to FMadera Send a message via Yahoo to FMadera
Quote:
Originally Posted by genetoy71 View Post
One other thing that I find odd that is sort of getting lost in this discussion thread - two JV/V officials working together and neither knew the proper penalty for a first UD in a set. It certainly is not point/loss of rally.
They likely are stuck in the "few years ago" mode, when that was the penalty for a third timeout.
__________________
Felix A. Madera
USAV Indoor National / Beach Zonal Referee
FIVB Qualified International Scorer
PAVO National Referee / Certified Line Judge/Scorer
WIAA/IHSA Volleyball Referee
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 18, 2019, 07:26am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 624
Send a message via ICQ to FMadera Send a message via AIM to FMadera Send a message via Yahoo to FMadera
Quote:
Originally Posted by genetoy71 View Post
Just curious - how would you interpret Rule 12 (Conduct) - 12.2.8.k: "Making any excessive requests designed to disrupt the set."?
This was generally more in the realm of sub counts, lineup checks every rotation, etc. Less applicable now that we have sanctions for delays. If a coach requests a third timeout, there's already a sanction in place for it. Get it recorded quickly, but you don't request an individual card for something that calls for an administrative sanction.

Now, if they complain about the sanction to the point of warranting one, at that time you can request the individual sanction.
__________________
Felix A. Madera
USAV Indoor National / Beach Zonal Referee
FIVB Qualified International Scorer
PAVO National Referee / Certified Line Judge/Scorer
WIAA/IHSA Volleyball Referee
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 26, 2019, 12:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMadera View Post
This was generally more in the realm of sub counts, lineup checks every rotation, etc. Less applicable now that we have sanctions for delays. If a coach requests a third timeout, there's already a sanction in place for it. Get it recorded quickly, but you don't request an individual card for something that calls for an administrative sanction.

Now, if they complain about the sanction to the point of warranting one, at that time you can request the individual sanction.
I agree to some extent. With that said, If a team is continually using the lineup check requests to delay the set and then attempts to call an excess time out, we potentially do have an issue with unsportsmanlike conduct. Simply attempting to call a 3rd time out without a pattern of behavior indicating "gamesmanship" to me is filed under the YUD/RUD rules, not sportsmanship rules.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 26, 2019, 12:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
not for YUD, I don't think. Possibly for a YC for misconduct.



Fair enough. Different areas do it differently. We would try to minimize the coach breaking momentum, getting additional time by having the R note the YUD and getting the action resumed ASAP and catching up on the scoresheet a bit later (unless the scorekeeper is on his / her toes and gets it recorded right away). I agree it's not unsporting conduct.
I found out that an area opposing school has caught on to this tactic. The scorekeeper, who is a former long time varsity coach at the school, knows when it is coming and already had most of the YUD comment written by the time the R2 had turned around. The R2 then confirmed, gave the court back to the R1, who beaconed for serve. This was while the offending team was huddling in a pseudo-timeout. That result in an out of alignment call followed by a red card to the coach for UC.

Basically he tried pulling the same scheme one to many times with that opponent and this time the scorekeeper knew the scheme and as a result was ready for it when it happened. The coach didn't expect the process to be handled that quickly and as a result was caught with the team not paying attention.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The One Time, And Only Time, It's Good To Wear A Black Belt ... BillyMac Basketball 28 Sun Jan 24, 2016 01:15pm
Game clock shows time remaining in time-out -- against the rules? Lotto Basketball 7 Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:10am
Long Time Lurker, First Time Poster SoInZebra Basketball 122 Mon Mar 26, 2007 04:10pm
Another long time listener, first time caller Fifth And Goal Basketball 11 Wed Feb 25, 2004 10:30am
When is it time to call Time / Dead ball? Deion Softball 1 Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:50am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:29am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1