Slow Pitch 3 man and a 2 man question.

[chapmaja]

I got a rare opportunity (as in first time ever) to work 3 man on a slow pitch game tonight (Co-Rec). We have 2 fields and 3 games per night. Generally one crew works on game and the other two games. One of the one game crew wanted to work the second game as a 3 man. I got the home plate assignment, which I think was easiest.

I think I only missed on situation where I should have rotated. I don't recall situation, but I was in the holding zone when a throw game in from the outfield. The umpire who started on first base rotated down to cover the plate. I guess I never heard her communicate she was coming down. Thankfully there was no play.

Also, we had a play in the first game. BU on a this game. R1 on second, R2 on third. B3 singles to left field. R1 comes around trying to score. Throw comes in and the runner scores. R2 who had slowed at second decides to go to third. Catcher's throw to F6 easily beats her and she is tagged out. The question is who does this call at third base belong to in a 2 man slow pitch system? The plate umpire needs to stay home for R2 coming home, so my guess is this is the BU call. The problem is the batter-runner who I also have to watch for. as the BU I could have had a play at either 2nd (batter-runner) or third (R2). PU just had a potential play at home on R1.

I don't do much 2 man in slow pitch and virtually no three man EVER, so I am not real strong on the positioning.

And yes, I can look it up in the umpires manual, but unfortunately I don't have access to it right now to look it up and don't feel like searching online for it, or paying for it.

[teebob21]

Deleted original comment, I should know better than to post at 1 am.

PU has initial play at 3B for everyone except the batter-runner, unless covering an initial play at home.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Also, we had a play in the first game. BU on a this game. R1 on second, R2 on FIRST. B3 singles to left field. R1 comes around trying to score. Throw comes in and the runner scores. R2 who had slowed at second decides to go to third. Catcher's throw to F6 easily beats her and she is tagged out. The question is who does this call at third base belong to in a 2 man slow pitch system? The plate umpire needs to stay home for R2 coming home, so my guess is this is the BU call. The problem is the batter-runner who I also have to watch for. as the BU I could have had a play at either 2nd (batter-runner) or third (R2). PU just had a potential play at home on R1.

I don't do much 2 man in slow pitch and virtually no three man EVER, so I am not real strong on the positioning.

And yes, I can look it up in the umpires manual, but unfortunately I don't have access to it right now to look it up and don't feel like searching online for it, or paying for it.

Obviously, you meant R2 on first, corrected above.

R2 going from 1st to 3rd after R1 scores is PU responsibility. If the plays are close together, so that PU can not get both; PU must communicate (e.g., "I HAVE HOME") to the BU , who should already be anticipating the possibility.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I think I only missed on situation where I should have rotated. I don't recall situation, but I was in the holding zone when a throw game in from the outfield. The umpire who started on first base rotated down to cover the plate. I guess I never heard her communicate she was coming down. Thankfully there was no play.

A common part of learning 3 ump.
- U1 should not rotate unless PU does
- whoever has to communicate must make sure of being heard

[Andy]

For ASA, three umpire mechanics are the same in both fast pitch and slow pitch.

One thing that ASA started teaching a few years ago, is that there is no "holding zone" for the PU. If you are going to rotate to third, commit to rotating all of the way. Don't stop halfway to see what happens.

This frees U1 to know that s/he has to rotate home.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

A common part of learning 3 ump.
- U1 should not rotate unless PU does
- whoever has to communicate must make sure of being heard

Sorry, I disagree with part 1.

If it was a situation where U1 started on the line (bases empty, R on 1st only, or R on 3rd only), PU is obligated to cover 3rd, and needs to be headed there as soon as a runner is headed there (because U3 should already have vacated and be at 2nd!!). U1 SHOULD rotate, and be pushing PU to 3rd, with a loud verbal "I've got home"!!

As to the second issue (well, first chronologically, the two man game), whenever the initial play is a throw through to home, PU is committed to home, and BU has any return throw to third. If the initial throw is to 3rd, or cut off and initial play is 3rd, THEN it is PU with head on swivel from the holding zone to make the call at third. Hopefully, if timing is crucial, BU can help with "Did she score before the out?".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I think I only missed on situation where I should have rotated. I don't recall situation, but I was in the holding zone when a throw game in from the outfield. The umpire who started on first base rotated down to cover the plate. I guess I never heard her communicate she was coming down. Thankfully there was no play. .

Don't ever remember telling partners I was rotating, we just did it. Yes, we took a glance to make sure someone was moving before abandoning a base to move to the next position.

The 3-umpire system is great and not nearly as complicated as many seem to think it is.

[SWFLguy]

The 3-umpire system is great and not nearly as complicated as many seem to think it is.
I got burned working 3 man in a high school play-off game. I was U3 and a rotation situation came up. I moved over to second to make a call. The ball gets loose, the runner at second breaks for 3rd. I look at 3rd and see no one there. Ended up having to make a close call at 3rd in bad position. Later I ask PU what happened. He said he moved to 3rd, but noticed that U1 umpire never moved, so he held back to cover a possible play at the plate. Also later checking with 1B and he says to me that he is never to cover home. Swell. Yes, it works when everyone knows what they are to do.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by SWFLguy

The 3-umpire system is great and not nearly as complicated as many seem to think it is.
I got burned working 3 man in a high school play-off game. I was U3 and a rotation situation came up. I moved over to second to make a call. The ball gets loose, the runner at second breaks for 3rd. I look at 3rd and see no one there. Ended up having to make a close call at 3rd in bad position. Later I ask PU what happened. He said he moved to 3rd, but noticed that U1 umpire never moved, so he held back to cover a possible play at the plate. Also later checking with 1B and he says to me that he is never to cover home. Swell. Yes, it works when everyone knows what they are to do.

I agree and I think that is why there HAS to be so much communication in 3 person. A LOT of people don't work 3 person very much and they aren't comfortable with it so you have to talk and help push and pull your partners around the diamond. I had a 3 person game where my U3 was not very comfortable with 3 person. We had R1 at 1B and a base hit to outfield I came up to 3B as runner came around 2B I see U3 heading at me I yelled "I got 3 pick up batter runner" it jogged his memory and he adjusted and nobody but us knew he almost missed the rotation.

I agree with Irish it's strange sometimes to communicate doing what your suppose to do....we should all know 3 person so why do I need to tell you I'm doing exactly what I'm suppose to do??? Well IMO it's because when people aren't comfortable, and I mean react when the ball is hit knowing where to go without pausing to think about it comfortable, you have to communicate and word it in a way that reminds them to move to thier proper location! Just my opinion.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by SWFLguy

The 3-umpire system is great and not nearly as complicated as many seem to think it is.
I got burned working 3 man in a high school play-off game. I was U3 and a rotation situation came up. I moved over to second to make a call. The ball gets loose, the runner at second breaks for 3rd. I look at 3rd and see no one there. Ended up having to make a close call at 3rd in bad position. Later I ask PU what happened. He said he moved to 3rd, but noticed that U1 umpire never moved, so he held back to cover a possible play at the plate. Also later checking with 1B and he says to me that he is never to cover home. Swell. Yes, it works when everyone knows what they are to do.

How did this part not come up in the pregame?? Never mind, obviously there was no pregame, even though it is clear at least one member of the crew had no idea of his responsibilities.

Look, I admit most of my pregames are of the "Any questions?" variety, with a discussion of two or three finer points; but that's when I'm working with umpires that I KNOW know the routine parts. I refuse to repeat who has fair/foul and that we bracket foul balls ad nauseum. But I also think it is the entire crew's fault when you get to the point that U1 doesn't believe he ever covers the plate.

Mostly the crew chief's failure, he is to lead a pregame, but I'm not walking out of the locker room with a crew that I don't know absent some knowledge of their coverage. I may walk out knowing that I have to cover for one or both, but I would know that before we start.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

...the crew chief...the locker room...

What game are we discussing again?

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

How did this part not come up in the pregame?? Never mind, obviously there was no pregame, even though it is clear at least one member of the crew had no idea of his responsibilities.

Look, I admit most of my pregames are of the "Any questions?" variety, with a discussion of two or three finer points; but that's when I'm working with umpires that I KNOW know the routine parts. I refuse to repeat who has fair/foul and that we bracket foul balls ad nauseum. But I also think it is the entire crew's fault when you get to the point that U1 doesn't believe he ever covers the plate.

Mostly the crew chief's failure, he is to lead a pregame, but I'm not walking out of the locker room with a crew that I don't know absent some knowledge of their coverage. I may walk out knowing that I have to cover for one or both, but I would know that before we start.

The pregame, yeah about that. 7:15 game. Previous game gets done at 7:10. Cloudy night so light could become an issue.

It's always great to have these grand ideas about what needs to be done, however the reality of the situation is that in Rec Leagues that doesn't always happen. I didn't even know we were doing a 3 man until about 2 minutes before the game.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I guess for those not familiar with the 3-umpire system, reading a book and watching a video is only good enough to make you start thinking about it. The ONLY way to learn this system is to work it with knowledgeable partners multiple times.

Used to have umpires volunteer to step in and work 3-umpire games just for the sake of getting a routine down to the point the umpire needn't think about, but just executes.

IMO, the most difficult part of the 3-umpire system is the split-second decisions on fly ball coverage