NFHS rule set on CR infraction

[Tru_in_Blu]

I worked the bases at a middle school final this past week.

Typically, the MS coaches keep their own lineup cards and manage their changes. My partner asked if he should manage the lineup cards for this game and I suggested that he should given that it was the Finals.

He mentioned it at the plate conference and both coaches balked at it (guess you can balk in softball) so the PU somewhat relented and said to inform him when they made any changes.

About the 4th or 5th inning, a batter reached first base. Offense Coach declares that he wants to use a CR for his pitcher. I was looking at the girl on 1B, and didn't think it was the pitcher. CR takes the runner's place. After a play which resulted in the next batter grounding out, the CR took 2B.

Now Defense Coach comes out to the PU and claims that the CR was not running for the last player to be the pitcher.

Turns out the O Coach was going to put her in to pitch next inning, but she hadn't pitched yet. PU and both coaches ended up having about a 5 minute conversation. Since I wasn't asked to participate, I just stayed out in the field. PU got both coaches to agree to allow the CR to stay on the bases, and again reiterated to both to let him know about any changes.

Game ended up as a rout with a final of 11-2.

After the game, we discussed what should have happened.

My first point was that the PU should have managed his lineup card better and not allowed the CR in the first place.

But, since he did allow it, and the D Coach caught it, what should the penalty have been?

I believe it would be covered under 3-4 Illegal Substitute. The CR would have been called out and restricted to the bench.

If that is indeed the correct rule to cover this, it seems harsh on the girl who was just following her coach's instructions. I saw nothing about a penalty to the coach.

Any other rules that might apply here?

Thanx.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

I worked the bases at a middle school final this past week.

Typically, the MS coaches keep their own lineup cards and manage their changes. My partner asked if he should manage the lineup cards for this game and I suggested that he should given that it was the Finals.

He mentioned it at the plate conference and both coaches balked at it (guess you can balk in softball) so the PU somewhat relented and said to inform him when they made any changes.

About the 4th or 5th inning, a batter reached first base. Offense Coach declares that he wants to use a CR for his pitcher. I was looking at the girl on 1B, and didn't think it was the pitcher. CR takes the runner's place. After a play which resulted in the next batter grounding out, the CR took 2B.

Now Defense Coach comes out to the PU and claims that the CR was not running for the last player to be the pitcher.

Turns out the O Coach was going to put her in to pitch next inning, but she hadn't pitched yet. PU and both coaches ended up having about a 5 minute conversation. Since I wasn't asked to participate, I just stayed out in the field. PU got both coaches to agree to allow the CR to stay on the bases, and again reiterated to both to let him know about any changes.

Game ended up as a rout with a final of 11-2.

After the game, we discussed what should have happened.

My first point was that the PU should have managed his lineup card better and not allowed the CR in the first place.

But, since he did allow it, and the D Coach caught it, what should the penalty have been?

I believe it would be covered under 3-4 Illegal Substitute. The CR would have been called out and restricted to the bench.

If that is indeed the correct rule to cover this, it seems harsh on the girl who was just following her coach's instructions. I saw nothing about a penalty to the coach.

Any other rules that might apply here?

Thanx.

First and Foremost: Coaches do not tell me that I am not going not going to keep the lineup cards. I do keep the lineup cards each and every game I umpire when I am the PU. The HCs can moan and groan all they want but it is my diamond and my (actually NFHS Softball Rules) rules, and I keep the lineup cards. And by the way, did I mention that I keep the lineup cards.

There is another reason I keep the lineup cards. Yesterday in a 10U pool play game and neither team is using the DP/Flex: Team A has Able, who is batting in the 4th spot and playing F4, walks. Baker, who is a substitute PRs for Able. The half inning ends and A-HC informs that Able is re-entering, and that she is going to have Baker take Charles place as F7, and did I mention that Charles in batting in the 7th spot, . I informed that Baker could not take Charles place, she wanted to why she couldn't because: Baker had not been in the game yet, . She could not grasp the concept that Baker had been in the game when she PR for Able and then if Baker was going to re-enter the game it had to be in the 4th spot of the batting order.

MTD, Sr.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Typically, the MS coaches keep their own lineup cards and manage their changes.

THIS is the root problem for everything that happened here. Change THIS next year. This is a horrible practice. Don't care if it's middle school ... umpire keeps the lineup at 10U... I admit I'm a little stunned this is typical practice for MS in ANY game ANYwhere.

That said ... when CR went in, was it announced as a CR, or did she just go in? If the latter, you have an unannounced sub - treat accordingly.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Here's my suggestion, and how I would handled from the start.

At the pregame conference, I would have stated to both "balking" coaches that if they did not give me an official lineup, then they were both waiving all lineup violations; be it intentional or unintentional, I would not rule on any batting out of order or substitution violations. The only official lineup is the one in the PU's possession, so if no lineup to check, there are no violations.

Had they proceeded as they did, my decision to the defensive coach is that he waived the right to make that appeal, so there is and will be no violation for me to rule. So how do feel about not giving me an official lineup now, coach?

Protest? Sure. Ruling: You waived your right to appeal when you didn't give the PU a lineup. Your statement that is an illegal sub cannot be verified.

[MD Longhorn]

I love it.

Although I must say ... if such a protest came to me, my first thought is going to be coming down rather hard on the umpire who did not collect lineup cards, even if they were as esteemed an umpire as Atl.

Then again ... I've truly never heard of a group that didn't take lineups at the plate, with the possible exception of preseason scrimmages and/or post-season all-star style scrimmages - where you have no lineup rules anyway.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

That said ... when CR went in, was it announced as a CR, or did she just go in? If the latter, you have an unannounced sub - treat accordingly.

The player was announced as a CR.

After the game, I wondered if an appropriate "fix" would have been to treat the situation as an unreported sub. At least then the coach would have had his wrist slapped.

I agree that all games should require PU line up card management. Whenever I am on the plate, I take line up cards.

Similar situation earlier in the playoffs where my plate partner didn't take line up cards. I heard the losing team's coach just rattling off defensive positions every inning. First 2-3 innings, there was a new F3 each inning. Seemed like F1 and F2 stayed the same for 4.5 innings, but everything else seemed like free substitution.

The other team never complained and ended up winning 19-1.

If nothing else, it helps newer umpires become familiar w/ the task, and may even help "varsity coaches in waiting" learn more about the game and how to manage substitutions, DP/Flex, etc.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

THIS is the root problem for everything that happened here. Change THIS next year. This is a horrible practice. Don't care if it's middle school ... umpire keeps the lineup at 10U... I admit I'm a little stunned this is typical practice for MS in ANY game ANYwhere.

That said ... when CR went in, was it announced as a CR, or did she just go in? If the latter, you have an unannounced sub - treat accordingly.

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Here's my suggestion, and how I would handled from the start.

At the pregame conference, I would have stated to both "balking" coaches that if they did not give me an official lineup, then they were both waiving all lineup violations; be it intentional or unintentional, I would not rule on any batting out of order or substitution violations. The only official lineup is the one in the PU's possession, so if no lineup to check, there are no violations.

Had they proceeded as they did, my decision to the defensive coach is that he waived the right to make that appeal, so there is and will be no violation for me to rule. So how do feel about not giving me an official lineup now, coach?

Protest? Sure. Ruling: You waived your right to appeal when you didn't give the PU a lineup. Your statement that is an illegal sub cannot be verified.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I love it.

Although I must say ... if such a protest came to me, my first thought is going to be coming down rather hard on the umpire who did not collect lineup cards, even if they were as esteemed an umpire as Atl.

Then again ... I've truly never heard of a group that didn't take lineups at the plate, with the possible exception of preseason scrimmages and/or post-season all-star style scrimmages - where you have no lineup rules anyway.

Gentlemen:

Read my original post, the rules are already in place and there is no need to formulate some sort of compromise. Inform the HCs at the pre-game conference that the conference will not go forward until they produce copies of their team's lineups for you.

MTD, Sr.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Yep, read your post.

Not everything in my world is as absolute as it appears to be in yours.

I get this would never happen to you. But it happened someplace else.

Other than time travel back to the plate conference or even before, do you have any other pearls of wisdom?

[Dakota]

OK, I get all the lecturing on never go ahead without a lineup card, and I agree with that if the lineup rules are expected to be enforced by the book.

But, in the moment as described in the OP, you have no ideal solution. Your only real choice, since it was stated that each team is managing their own lineup, is to consider the team's book as official, just as if it was in your pocket.

Examine the book. That would settle the "announced" or "unannounced" question. Since the PU is not keeping a lineup, telling the PU is not announcing anything.

If the notation in the book is for a CR, it is an illegal substitute.
If the notation is for a pinch runner, no penalty.
If there is no notation, it is an unannounced illegal substitute, since the coach verbally stated it was a CR.

Again... this is my view on how the situation presented should have been handled once the plate meeting went as it did.