The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 12:16pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,136
Bat question

I attended one of our league's captains' meeting last evening.

There was a proposal that their league (an intramural, co-ed, modified w/ several bylaws amending ASA rules) go to a wooden bat league.

Some discussion centered on safety. They were using the modified ball.

There was a concern that the bats with the 2013 ASA stamp were "hotter" than previous approved bats. I'm not a bat guru by any means, so couldn't offer much in that regard.

As you might expect, a lot of folks weren't willing to give up their relatively new metal/composite bats which cost $200 to $400 each. This, in addition to having to spend additional monies on wooden bats.

They decided to keep the metal bats and start using the slow-pitch balls. This would be assuming the cost difference between the modified and slow pitch balls was minimal.

My question to those of you more in the know is: are the 2013 bats really "hotter"?

Thanx.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 01:00pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 949
I don't know if I'm "in the know" but YES! That bat standard (2013) was made to comply with the 52/300 slow pitch ball, so a harder bat against a "softer" ball does not exceed the maximum batted ball speed limit. It is not allowed to be used in the ASA Women's Fast Pitch or JO Fast pitch (or NFHS fast pitch) since the ball they use is more lively (harder) than the 52/300 ball used in slow pitch. So it is looked at as a system, bat + ball <98MPH batted ball speed.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 01:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED View Post
I don't know if I'm "in the know" but YES! That bat standard (2013) was made to comply with the 52/300 slow pitch ball, so a harder bat against a "softer" ball does not exceed the maximum batted ball speed limit. It is not allowed to be used in the ASA Women's Fast Pitch or JO Fast pitch (or NFHS fast pitch) since the ball they use is more lively (harder) than the 52/300 ball used in slow pitch. So it is looked at as a system, bat + ball <98MPH batted ball speed.
The 2013 bats are allowed in Men's (and Boy's JO) fastpitch. Does that combination (2013 bat + 0.47/375# ball) exceed the standard? If "yes", why is it allowed? If "no", why is it not allowed in the other fastpitch games?
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 01:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 2,667
The rationale for the 2013 ASA stamp

The exit speed threshold for bats to be approved by ASA is 98MPH.

To calculate that number, a formula was developed that measured several different variables about the bat, the ball, and the swing speed of the bat itself.
The swing speed was calculated to be an "average" of all players and set at a certain number to be used in the exit speed calculation.

In 2012, several field studies were done around the slow pitch game and it was discovered that the number being used as an "average" swing speed in the calculation was higher than what was being discovered in the field. As a result the swing speed number in the bat exit speed calculation was replaced with the number from the field studies. This allowed bats that would not meet the 98 mph standard with the higher number to now meet the standard. These are the bats with the 2013 ASA stamp.

So the "hotness" of the bat depends on how hard the batter swings and how solid the contact is between the bat and ball.

As a side note, I have learned that a Men's FP league in my area has decided to only allow wood bats in their league this year.
__________________
It's what you learn after you think you know it all that's important!
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 02:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 2,667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob View Post
The 2013 bats are allowed in Men's (and Boy's JO) fastpitch. Does that combination (2013 bat + 0.47/375# ball) exceed the standard? If "yes", why is it allowed? If "no", why is it not allowed in the other fastpitch games?
The reason the bats with the 2013 stamp are allowed in the male FP game is that field studies were done and with the average swing speed in that game, the bat still meets the exit speed standard of 98 mph.

It was my understanding that similar studies were to be done in the female FP game to determine if the 2013 bats would be allowed. To the best of my knowledge those studies have not been done or the data is still being analyzed.
__________________
It's what you learn after you think you know it all that's important!
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 02:09pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
The reason the bats with the 2013 stamp are allowed in the male FP game is that field studies were done and with the average swing speed in that game, the bat still meets the exit speed standard of 98 mph.

It was my understanding that similar studies were to be done in the female FP game to determine if the 2013 bats would be allowed. To the best of my knowledge those studies have not been done or the data is still being analyzed.
That is correct and the answer to Crabby Bob's question. they had the data to show swing speeds and batted ball speeds were acceptable in the men's game. They are working on getting the data to prove it's acceptable in the Women's and JO girls game before allowing it. They are very data driven in making changes to bats and balls!!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 07:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED View Post
That is correct and the answer to Crabby Bob's question. they had the data to show swing speeds and batted ball speeds were acceptable in the men's game. They are working on getting the data to prove it's acceptable in the Women's and JO girls game before allowing it. They are very data driven in making changes to bats and balls!!
While "they" may be very data driven, doesn't logic presume that the females' average swing speed would be slower than the males? And averages being what they are, there are undoubtedly some females that have a higher swing speed than some males.

Also concerning averages, if you're knocked silly by a batter with lower than average swing speed, it's not going to hurt any less. (Although I think that's why the new ball was introduced - less damaging when contacting a human head.)

If data driven to safety concerns, why not use the upper 2, 5, or 10 percent of swing speed to derive the "average".

Favorite piece of knowledge shared by my statistics professor: Statistics is a lot like a pretty girl in a skimpy bikini... You may see a lot, but you could be missing the most important parts.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 09, 2015, 10:44pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Northeast Nebraska
Posts: 694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post
As a side note, I have learned that a Men's FP league in my area has decided to only allow wood bats in their league this year.
Off topic: Andy, there's still MFP around here? Can you PM/email me if there are games available?

On topic: Good to know this forum (and my area) has people knowledgeable about bats & balls news. I just show up and work and make sure the equipment is legal and reasonably round.

Back off topic: The orange 2015 Easton Mako bats are the hottest bats I've seen in a long time (comparable to the doublewall Miken bats that were legal around 2002 but banned after 2004 or so). I saw a check-swing slap hit home run over a 220 ft fence last week...with poor contact on a changeup out of the strike zone. The batter ran to first base and over-ran it, thinking it was an outfield single, and knowing she barely swung.
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)
"I'm gonna call it ASA for the foreseeable future. You all know what I mean."

Last edited by teebob21; Thu Apr 09, 2015 at 11:40pm. Reason: added useless anecdote
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 10, 2015, 12:56am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
While "they" may be very data driven, doesn't logic presume that the females' average swing speed would be slower than the males? And averages being what they are, there are undoubtedly some females that have a higher swing speed than some males.
[...]
By logic, yes. By process of science, no. Extrapolation outside of the data range is a sin.

Last edited by Crabby_Bob; Fri Apr 10, 2015 at 11:33am.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 10, 2015, 07:17am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,505
You know, many have never seen a ball at 98 mph. Fast is fast and we think of bats as "hot" or "hotter", but totally based on what one has experienced.

98mph is the maximum exit speed and if you see the max, IMO it is more likely in a SP game as FP is more about contact then power, in general.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Balk Question and Base Abandonment Question easygoer Baseball 7 Fri May 23, 2014 11:11am
A question on a play and a mechanics question. aevans410 Baseball 11 Mon May 12, 2008 09:23am
two questions - start of half question and free throw question hoopguy Basketball 6 Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:12pm
Rule Question and Mechanics Question Stair-Climber Softball 15 Fri May 06, 2005 06:44am
Over the back Question? Sorry mistyped my first question CoaachJF Basketball 15 Thu Feb 27, 2003 03:18pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:36am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1