Q's for 10U experienced umpires or UICs

[whiskers_ump]

Rick posted:

"Here's a different scenario, but the same rule(s) should apply, I think. If a runner on 1st steals 2nd. The catcher overthrows the defense. The runner goes to 3rd, rounds it and is heading home when the coach tells her to go back to 2nd. She goes straight to 2nd and gets there safely. (Remember, this is 10-U.) The defense should be able to appeal the runner missing 3rd base, correct? This is the same at home. I'm sure I'll hear some debate on this and am looking forward to reading and maybe learning a little more."

Rick



I agree with the above, however original scenario, was that the
10U runner had achieved HP. There is no where else for her to go.
After the play the umpire would put her back on 3rd, even if she has
headed for dugout or even entered it. She is not abandoning
a base, merely completing what she figured to be a run scored.

Above scenario is different and even 10U would be required to comply
with Rule 8 Sec 3A. unless runner is standing on 3rd at time of
tag.

glen

[Dakota]

First, on abandoning the base... Mike was making a point on the use of the word "abandoning" - there is no abandoning the base rule in ASA. The runner is out for entering dead ball territory, not for abandonment.

Second, if the runner re-establishes her jeopardy by returning to third during the live ball, the I can see the requirement that she has to retouch home on the way by. That was the way I was originally thinking. But, Mike makes a good point that the runner is no longer in jeopardy once she has touched home. I have changed my thinking. If she tries to return to 3rd during the live ball, and draws a throw, then maybe there would be a case for interference, but she cannot be tagged out, and she cannot be declared out for entering DBT.

The key thing that is diferent with the 10U runner v. a runner who, for example, missed third on the way by, is the 10U runner has committed no infraction and has no obligation to return to touch 3rd! It is just that by the 10U base running rules, her advance and score will be nullified once the play is over, and she will be returned to 3rd base by the umpire.

She has this weird status of a runner who has scored but who's score will be nullified once the play is complete. Until the play is complete her legal status is the same as any other runner who has scored.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by TexBlue
OK, I'm missing something. In the original post, Question 5 says the runner goes into the dugout.

Q5... If said runner goes out of play into dugout after crossing home, what is the ruling?

This is what I was basing the question I had on.

Nothing new here. Once the runner crosses home, they are no longer an active runner.

I agree the runner has done nothing illegal by advancing to a base she can't have. BUT if she or the coach realizes the mistake and "retreats" to 3rd base, I still think she's gotta retrace her steps, meaning she has to go through home. I agree with your statement if the umpire tells her to go back to 3rd. There is no reason to retrace the steps.

That's a different story, and I agree, that would be the case. Not a smart move, but I guess it would be possible.

This is the question which was answered by the state UIC, but it wasn't the question which was asked. In the original question, there was absolutely NO mention of the runner attempting to return, but merely asked if the runner was still in jeopardy after scoring.

Here's a different scenario, but the same rule(s) should apply, I think. If a runner on 1st steals 2nd. The catcher overthrows the defense. The runner goes to 3rd, rounds it and is heading home when the coach tells her to go back to 2nd. She goes straight to 2nd and gets there safely. (Remember, this is 10-U.) The defense should be able to appeal the runner missing 3rd base, correct? This is the same at home. I'm sure I'll hear some debate on this and am looking forward to reading and maybe learning a little more.

I believe they should be able to appeal that play because the runner was still active and the play had not yet finished at the time of the infraction. And it is a possibility that this runner could have advanced farther legally if the ball was thrown out of play. So, advancing to 3B was not an impossibility and during that period, the runner was still in jeopardy, unlike a runner who has crossed the plate.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA

That's a different story, and I agree, that would be the case. Not a smart move, but I guess it would be possible.

This is the question which was answered by the state UIC, but it wasn't the question which was asked. In the original question, there was absolutely NO mention of the runner attempting to return, but merely asked if the runner was still in jeopardy after scoring.

Now I'm confused, Mike.

Earlier, you said (and convinced me) that the runner who has touched home was no longer in jeopardy. How does retreating back to 3rd base place her back in jeopardy? This wouldn't be true for any other age runner, why here?

As I said above, I can see an interference call, but not a tag out.

[TexBlue]

Isn't this great?

This has become one of the more interesting posts and follow ups in a long time.

They oughtta just let the 10-U play like everyone else. I think I understand the reasoning for the way it is. I believe the intent was to let the girls try to make a play with no possible bad outcome for the defense. With a "station to station" set of rules, an overthrow can't cost someone a game, so the coach lets the catchers try to throw the girl out or pick them off base.

I think.

Rick

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by TexBlue
Isn't this great?

This has become one of the more interesting posts and follow ups in a long time.

They oughtta just let the 10-U play like everyone else. I think I understand the reasoning for the way it is. I believe the intent was to let the girls try to make a play with no possible bad outcome for the defense. With a "station to station" set of rules, an overthrow can't cost someone a game, so the coach lets the catchers try to throw the girl out or pick them off base.

I think.

Rick

That's true Rick. Most of the cases in 10U the outs
happen because the "coach"does not understand the rules.
Usually in 10U when the runner achieves the next base be-
yond the one they are entitled to, they just stand there.
Which is fine, cause after the play is over, blue is gonna
send her back to the one base she was legally entitled.
Coach see'em there decides something wrong and puts them on
the move and that is normally when the outs occur.

glen

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota


Earlier, you said (and convinced me) that the runner who has touched home was no longer in jeopardy. How does retreating back to 3rd base place her back in jeopardy? This wouldn't be true for any other age runner, why here?

As I said above, I can see an interference call, but not a tag out.

Speaking ASA

This is true for all ASA ball, regardless of age level or discipline (Casebook 8.3-1, rules 8.3.A, 8.7.G)

Try not to confuse the two plays. I stand by my belief that they cannot be put out once touching the plate.

Although I believe this is a remote possibility, especially at 10U, if a runner who missed a base or left a base too soon attempts to return after touching the plate, they must retouch the plate as they return to 3B. Once they do, they once again become an active runner. This places them in jeopardy. Since there is still an active runner in motion, the play is not yet over.

Remember, the effects of the 10U rules do not take effect until the play is over.

Thanks,

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
[Try not to confuse the two plays. I stand by my belief that they cannot be put out once touching the plate.

Although I believe this is a remote possibility, especially at 10U, if a runner who missed a base or left a base too soon attempts to return after touching the plate, they must retouch the plate as they return to 3B. Once they do, they once again become an active runner. This places them in jeopardy. Since there is still an active runner in motion, the play is not yet over.

Remember, the effects of the 10U rules do not take effect until the play is over.

Honestly, I really am trying to keep this thread straight. I guess it didn't help that I started it with essentially 5 different scenarios.

Anyway, I missed the part where missing a base was added into the 10U steal home situation. Sorry. Of course I agree that a 10U player is required to touch all the bases, and that running the bases in the proper order applies at that age, too.