ASA 2015 Rule Changes

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Question on batting the entire roster in pool play. If one player gets ejected, game is a forfeit?

Shorthanded Rule: When a team elects to bat more than nine batters the game will continue with the skipped batter being recorded as an out whenever a player leaves the game for any reason other than an ejection. Teams cannot play with less than 8 players. If a team loses a player from the batting order due to an ejection the game would end in a forfeit. EXAMPLE: If a team bat’s 15 and all they have are 15, no subs, and they lose one batter due to ejection, the game would end in a forfeit.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Andy

I received this as a forward of an email sent by KR to the umpire chain of command....I did a quick search of the ASA site and could not find this....

Any update?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Any update?

With the National UIC clinic this weekend in OKC, you could expect to hear next week. Those attending are already there.

[CecilOne]

For anyone there who is reading the forum:

My comments:

Pinch Hitters: No player listed in the batting order may pinch hit for any of the first nine players listed or anyone else listed in the batting order. They must stay in the batting order position they started in. The only players allowed to pinch hit are those players not listed in the batting order.

This makes sense and is how the rule should stand.

Allowing batters from other batting positions to run for a batter in another batting position makes no sense at all and ignores a basic rule in all games that a player can only play in one batting position in a particular game.
See "Offensive Substitutes" above. " EXAMPLE: Batter number 4 gets a hit and batter 12 goes in to pinch run."
………………………………………………………………………………………………..

Batting Order: All players on the roster up to the total amount of players present on the roster may bat. Whatever number you start with must remain the same unless you lose players as mentioned in the rule. EXAMPLE: If you start with 12 batters you cannot increase to 13 batters or decrease to 11 batters

This should say
"Whatever number OF BATTING POSITIONS STARTED WITH",
not
"Whatever number you start with"

EXAMPLE: If you start with 12 batters you cannot increase to 13 batters or decrease to 11 batters.

This should say
"batting positions" not "batters"
to avoid confusion with the shorthanded rule and possibly with DP/FLEX.
……………………………………………………………………………………………..

• Defensive Substitutes: Players not listed as a starting player or DP/FLEX, first 9 spot in the batting order, may be used as a substitute on defense. The batting order will not be changed and the re-entry rule would still be in effect. EXAMPLE: Batter number 11 goes in to play defense at shortstop for batter 3. Batter 11 has now entered the game and batter 3 has left the game. They still bat in the 3 and 11 positions as they originally did. Re-entry rule still in effect
• Offensive Substitutes: Players not listed as a starting player, first 9 spot in the batting order, may be used as a substitute on offense like a pinch runner. The batting order will not be changed and the re-entry rule would still be in effect. EXAMPLE: Batter number 4 gets a hit and batter 12 goes in to pinch run. Batter 4 has left the game and batter 12 has entered the game. They still bat in positions 4 and 12 as they originally did. Re-entry rule still in effect.

Besides this being a bad idea,
the wording first say "first 9 spot(s?) ... may be used;
then uses the 11th and 12th positions as examples.

[CecilOne]

Still catching up from vacation , posting to keep near top.

[Andy]

This change to the rules was discussed extensively at the UIC Clinic this past weekend.

Here are the highlights:

• A team may bat up to the total number of players they have available
  
• The first nine players listed are considered the "starters" and must have a defensive position listed on the lineup
  
• A team may use the DP/FLEX with more than nine batters, if so, the FLEX is always listed in the last position in the lineup and must have a defensive position listed. The DP must be one of the first nine batters
  
• Any batters in the batting order beyond nine are considered "substitutes"
  
• Any substitute (whether batting or not) may pinch run for any starter. The batting order DOES NOT change. Example: B4 reaches base and B12 enters to pinch run. This is legal. B4 has left the game, but is still part of the batting order. B4 would only use her re-entry when she is put back in the game on DEFENSE
  
• If a substitute in the batting order is entered to run for a starter and the substitute is due to bat while she is on base, an out is declared for that batting position. She cannot be subbed for or the starter re-entered to allow the substitute to bat
  
• The courtesy runner rule is not affected. Any player in the batting order is not eligible to be a courtesy runner. If a team is batting all players present, they will not have the option of using a courtesy runner

Many questions were asked and much conversation was generated. Personally, I still think there are loopholes and situations that have not been thought of.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Andy

This change to the rules was discussed extensively at the UIC Clinic this past weekend.

Here are the highlights:

• A team may bat up to the total number of players they have available
  
• The first nine players listed are considered the "starters" and must have a defensive position listed on the lineup
  
• A team may use the DP/FLEX with more than nine batters, if so, the FLEX is always listed in the last position in the lineup and must have a defensive position listed. The DP must be one of the first nine batters
  
• Any batters in the batting order beyond nine are considered "substitutes"
  
  
• Any substitute (whether batting or not) may pinch run for any starter. The batting order DOES NOT change. Example: B4 reaches base and B12 enters to pinch run. This is legal. B4 has left the game, but is still part of the batting order. B4 would only use her re-entry when she is put back in the game on DEFENSE
  
• If a substitute in the batting order is entered to run for a starter and the substitute is due to bat while she is on base, an out is declared for that batting position. She cannot be subbed for or the starter re-entered to allow the substitute to bat
  
• The courtesy runner rule is not affected. Any player in the batting order is not eligible to be a courtesy runner. If a team is batting all players present, they will not have the option of using a courtesy runner

Many questions were asked and much conversation was generated. Personally, I still think there are loopholes and situations that have not been thought of.

Just to add another point. Expanding on the shaded point above, B12 "enters" the game for B4 as a runner. This would also make B12 a defensive player in the next half inning unless B4 re-enters. Suppose B4 does re-enter and B12 once again runs for B4. Now B4 can no longer play defense BUT she will still continue to bat in the 4th batting position.

Key point: B12 can "enter" for B4 on offense as a runner only; those two will always bat in the 4th and 12th spots, respectively, even if they do not have "entry" into the game (in essence, being removed from the defense twice).

I struggled with the concepts until I drew out a line up. Becomes easy when see it written down.

The short handed rule will come into effect when a player leaves due to injury or disqualification, not because they have use their one re-entry. Ejection still requires a legal sub (one not listed in the original batting order). As Andy stated, DP/Flex relationship still applies, as does the ability to have a CR ("one who has not participated" - being listed in the batting order is participation).

[Andy]

BS - Thanks....that helps.

Some further questions that I came up with that I intend to get additional clarifications on:

It seems as if we will need to track defensive positions if a team is batting more than 9 and uses a sub in the batting order for a starter.

If a starter is removed for a pinch runner in another spot in the batting order, must the starter be reported when she takes the field on defense?

I did see you at the clinic this weekend, just didn't get over to you to shake hands and say hi. Hope you enjoyed it....probably the best I have attended in spite of the different hotel accommodations, which were not as much of an issue as I had anticipated or our friend from Delaware believes!

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Andy

BS - Thanks....that helps.

Some further questions that I came up with that I intend to get additional clarifications on:

It seems as if we will need to track defensive positions if a team is batting more than 9 and uses a sub in the batting order for a starter.

If a starter is removed for a pinch runner in another spot in the batting order, must the starter be reported when she takes the field on defense?

Yes, and subject to appeal (and appropriate penalty) as an unreported sub. Kevin did state that we need to track all changes.

Originally Posted by Andy

I did see you at the clinic this weekend, just didn't get over to you to shake hands and say hi. Hope you enjoyed it....probably the best I have attended in spite of the different hotel accommodations, which were not as much of an issue as I had anticipated or our friend from Delaware believes!

We did talk, on two occasions (one being about this rule - you were standing! right behind me). I concur with your assessment about the clinic (although there was too much hate being thrown at my employer), it just seemed like everyone "scattered" when not in session. Ah, to only throw the shuffleboard at Chisom's one more time.

Congrats on your award.

And tell that little buddy of yours to quit wearing plate pants on the bases.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

This change to the rules was discussed extensively at the UIC Clinic this past weekend.

Here are the highlights:

• A team may bat up to the total number of players they have available
• The first nine players listed are considered the "starters" and must have a defensive position listed on the lineup
• A team may use the DP/FLEX with more than nine batters, if so, the FLEX is always listed in the last position in the lineup and must have a defensive position listed. The DP must be one of the first nine batters
• Any batters in the batting order beyond nine are considered "substitutes"
• Any substitute (whether batting or not) may pinch run for any starter. The batting order DOES NOT change. Example: B4 reaches base and B12 enters to pinch run. This is legal. B4 has left the game, but is still part of the batting order. B4 would only use her re-entry when she is put back in the game on DEFENSE
• If a substitute in the batting order is entered to run for a starter and the substitute is due to bat while she is on base, an out is declared for that batting position. She cannot be subbed for or the starter re-entered to allow the substitute to bat
• The courtesy runner rule is not affected. Any player in the batting order is not eligible to be a courtesy runner. If a team is batting all players present, they will not have the option of using a courtesy runner

Many questions were asked and much conversation was generated. Personally, I still think there are loopholes and situations that have not been thought of.

They can turn this any which way they choose, but IMO this does not belong in championship play.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

They can turn this any which way they choose, but IMO this does not belong in championship play.

I told anybody that would listen to me at council meeting in Reno that this was not a good idea.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by Andy

I told anybody that would listen to me at council meeting in Reno that this was not a good idea.

Not only a bad idea, a worse implementation. Ugly.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

I told anybody that would listen to me at council meeting in Reno that this was not a good idea.

Been there, done that. Frustrating as hell, isn't it.

And if you really want to break this down, think to whom the ultimate advantage belongs.

JO organizations can now carry an additions 3/4 players on the roster as they will be allowed to take part up until the DE. That is 3/4 additional players which will pay to be on the team.

As wild as that may seem, think of how diluted some levels of this game has become all in the name of getting Lil' Susie on the field and seen by the scouts. IMO, this will dilute the level of play that much more while creating a financial benefit to the team.

Just thinking aloud

[AtlUmpSteve]

Well not only are those believing this was a bad idea unhappy it passed, but I can pretty much guarantee that those that wanted the change are equally unhappy. Because they surely didn't get what they wanted, either, they got an aborted miscarriage version of anyone's idea of what they wanted (to amplify what Crabby Bob said).

I am willing to bet ANYTHING they simply wanted the pool games, which have no bearing on the championship play, to be exactly what most showcases do; bat as many as you wish, free substitution on defense while maintaining the batting order, and courtesy runners for any pitcher or catcher with anyone available (sub, last out, whatever). That would have been so simple; it works all the time in friendlies and showcases, whereever the game result isn't the priority, but letting the girls play, is. Whether they want exposure for college coaches, or simply to make sure that everyone on the roster has some measurable participation, isn't the concern; let them play was the goal.

But, in the apparent interest of making it as absurd as possible, so maybe it would be eliminated next year (do you think??), you get the rule implemented as stated above.

Anyone still wondering why the prevailing opinion among the teams/coaches/parents is that ASA simply doesn't get it, if they ever did??

[IRISHMAFIA]

Maybe I'm missing something, but as I read the code, there are still some situations where pool play does determine bracket draw. Granted it is a long way away from where it used to be, but I'm still curious as to why they bother.