ASA 2015 Rule Changes

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by Andy

Two words....college exposure!

Realistically, do you think most teams have college material at batting order numbers 6 through n?

Even teams playing at the national level have a lot of "holes" in the lineup. Occasionally you may see a team that is loaded with talent, but they are the exception and not the rule.

Several years ago our intramural modified league allowed for the 10 players in the field and 1 or 2 extra hitters at the coach's discretion. If the coach played 10, 11, or 12, and a player left the game for something other than ejection and there was no available sub, an out was recorded in that slot. That carried through until there were less than 8 players. Maybe a couple of times someone had to leave and an out was taken. It was pretty rare.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Realistically, do you think most teams have college material at batting order numbers 6 through n?

Even teams playing at the national level have a lot of "holes" in the lineup. Occasionally you may see a team that is loaded with talent, but they are the exception and not the rule.

Several years ago our intramural modified league allowed for the 10 players in the field and 1 or 2 extra hitters at the coach's discretion. If the coach played 10, 11, or 12, and a player left the game for something other than ejection and there was no available sub, an out was recorded in that slot. That carried through until there were less than 8 players. Maybe a couple of times someone had to leave and an out was taken. It was pretty rare.

Doesn't look like you got the point of my rolling eyes smiley.....

"More opportunities for college exposure" was the primary reason cited for wanting this rule change. As if 16u and 18u do almost nothing but showcase for the entire season and try to get college scholarships for their players.

My argument against this change was that at ASA National Tournaments, the teams are playing for a championship...let's play the game right!

Too much focus on "college exposure" and not enough on competing on the softball field.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Andy

As if 16u and 18u do almost nothing but showcase for the entire season and try to get college scholarships for their players.

Some, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Andy

My argument against this change was that at ASA National Tournaments, the teams are playing for a championship...let's play the game right!

Too much focus on "college exposure" and not enough on competing on the softball field.

ditto, ditto, ditto ! ! !

[Tru_in_Blu]

Andy, I'll admit I was a bit confused by the icon. I wasn't sure where the sarcasm was directed.

Coaches at almost every level eventually need to make a decision about trying to win the game or letting everyone play (in) the game.

A church league we work had a similar discussion regarding how their rosters were generated. Some are very diligent about only allowing members of the church (and however that is defined) to be on the roster. Others use some different tactics and call it outreach brotherhood programs or some such.

At the games, their bylaws allow for batting the entire roster, and some teams do that. Other teams hold back several players and only enter them when it is strategically advantageous to do so, even if it's only a pinch-hitting appearance.

Tournament JO games are also telling. Some girls don't get in a game at all. Some may only enter as a CR for pitcher/catcher.

I mostly played prior to re-entry rules. As a player/coach, I'd always try to have a player on the bench available in the event someone was hurt or tossed. Often times, it wasn't an option as we had just enough to play.

If the JO rule goes thru, it may not be long before all age groups follow suit. Many league bylaws already allow for it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

If the JO rule goes thru, it may not be long before all age groups follow suit. Many league bylaws already allow for it.

There is no "if", it's a done deal.

But I'm with Andy. At some point, it has to become about pure competition and not about participation. They play so many tournaments a year, plus league and HS play and fall ball, I cannot see what the big deal about playing ONE tournament to win. Otherwise, calling it a national championship is as ludicrous as calling the NCAA tournament a world series

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

calling it a national championship is as ludicrous as calling the NCAA tournament a world series

Oh no, you had to push that button.

Of course, I do agree.

[Andy]

Here is the official interpretation released from ASA:




This year the ASA/USA Council passed a new rule for 2015 allowing for up to all players on the roster present to be able to bat in all Junior Olympic Classifications of Play during Pool Play. The rule passed added a clause for how the shorthanded rule would be handled. The new rules as listed in the 2015 ASA Participant Manual reads as follows:

Rule 4, Section 1D[2A] Exception: In all Junior Olympic Fast Pitch Pool Play Only; When a team elects to bat more than nine batters the game will continue with the skipped batter being recorded as an out whenever a player leaves the game for any reason other than an ejection. Teams cannot play with less than 8 players.

Rule 7 Section 2F: (Fast Pitch) In Junior Olympic Pool Play only, teams have the option of having up to all players on the roster present bat. The Shorthanded Rule that applies to Junior Olympic Fast Pitch will apply. Rule 4, Section 1 [a-d] and 2 [a-g] Exception
This new rule did not address all the other aspects of our rules like Substitutes and Courtesy Runners. Based on the intent of the rule being that all players may bat and those over the 9 starters in the batting order could be substitutes and based on our Courtesy Runner rule as defined we have the following interpretation on how this rule should be administered during Junior Olympic Pool Play.
• Batting Order: All players on the roster up to the total amount of players present on the roster may bat. Whatever number you start with must remain the same unless you lose players as mentioned in the rule. EXAMPLE: If you start with 12 batters you cannot increase to 13 batters or decrease to 11 batters.






• Shorthanded Rule: When a team elects to bat more than nine batters the game will continue with the skipped batter being recorded as an out whenever a player leaves the game for any reason other than an ejection. Teams cannot play with less than 8 players. If a team loses a player from the batting order due to an ejection the game would end in a forfeit. EXAMPLE: If a team bat’s 15 and all they have are 15, no subs, and they lose one batter due to ejection, the game would end in a forfeit.
• When using a DP/FLEX: If a team uses the DP/FLEX rule the flex will still be listed at the end of the batting order. If a team decides to bat the FLEX they may do so. However, the FLEX may only bat for the DP in the DP’s batting position. Then DP would be then considered out of the game and may re-enter one time. EXAMPLE: A team is batting 12 and using the DP/FLEX. They would list their 12 batters with the DP being in one of the first nine positions and the FLEX listed in the 13th spot.
• Defensive Substitutes: Players not listed as a starting player or DP/FLEX, first 9 spot in the batting order, may be used as a substitute on defense. The batting order will not be changed and the re-entry rule would still be in effect. EXAMPLE: Batter number 11 goes in to play defense at shortstop for batter 3. Batter 11 has now entered the game and batter 3 has left the game. They still bat in the 3 and 11 positions as they originally did. Re-entry rule still in effect
• Offensive Substitutes: Players not listed as a starting player, first 9 spot in the batting order, may be used as a substitute on offense like a pinch runner. The batting order will not be changed and the re-entry rule would still be in effect. EXAMPLE: Batter number 4 gets a hit and batter 12 goes in to pinch run. Batter 4 has left the game and batter 12 has entered the game. They still bat in positions 4 and 12 as they originally did. Re-entry rule still in effect.
• Pinch Hitters: No player listed in the batting order may pinch hit for any of the first nine players listed or anyone else listed in the batting order. They must stay in the batting order position they started in. The only players allowed to pinch hit are those players not listed in the batting order.
• Courtesy Runner: No player starting in the batting order may be used as a Courtesy Runner for the pitcher and or catcher. In order to be a Courtesy Runner a player cannot have participated in the game in any fashion. EXAMPLE: If a team has 15 players and wants two Courtesy Runners they can only bat 13 players.
We hope this addresses any and all issues in regard to batting all players in Junior Olympic Pool Play. If other situations arise we will use the same thinking to try and resolve them.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Andy

• Offensive Substitutes: Players not listed as a starting player, first 9 spot in the batting order, may be used as a substitute on offense like a pinch runner. The batting order will not be changed and the re-entry rule would still be in effect. EXAMPLE: Batter number 4 gets a hit and batter 12 goes in to pinch run. Batter 4 has left the game and batter 12 has entered the game. They still bat in positions 4 and 12 as they originally did. Re-entry rule still in effect.

This is going to be a mess... and to make it even more fun it's a mess that we're only going to see in championship play which means that we won't be at all ready for it. And so it'll all get made up on the fly.
They better make a ruling for what happens when the girl due up is on base and they better make a rule for when you can pull her off base to solve that situation. For example, B10 is on base when B9 strikes out. If B10 is to be skipped can they then put B11 in for B10 or is it too late for that? Same question if B10 is to be out.
Now when they put B15 in for B10 has B10 left the game. By the logic above B10 wasn't in the game so how can she leave the game? Or can one only pinch run for the starting nine?

Editing to add one more: 15 players available, 14 listed on the lineup. B14 reaches 1st. S15 replaces B14. S15 steals Second and Third and then B1 reaches on a single scoring S15. S15 now pinch runs for B1. Legal?

[IRISHMAFIA]

• Defensive Substitutes: Players not listed as a starting player or DP/FLEX, first 9 spot in the batting order, may be used as a substitute on defense. The batting order will not be changed and the re-entry rule would still be in effect. EXAMPLE: Batter number 11 goes in to play defense at shortstop for batter 3. Batter 11 has now entered the game and batter 3 has left the game. They still bat in the 3 and 11 positions as they originally did. Re-entry rule still in effect
• Offensive Substitutes: Players not listed as a starting player, first 9 spot in the batting order, may be used as a substitute on offense like a pinch runner. The batting order will not be changed and the re-entry rule would still be in effect. EXAMPLE: Batter number 4 gets a hit and batter 12 goes in to pinch run. Batter 4 has left the game and batter 12 has entered the game. They still bat in positions 4 and 12 as they originally did. Re-entry rule still in effect.

This is ridiculous. How can you have left the game if you are still batting? The re-entry rule IS and always has been based upon the offensive line-up. WTF, why not just bat whoever, whenever and let any 9 play defense. After all, if you are going to screw something up, you just as well screw it up real good

We hope this addresses any and all issues in regard to batting all players in Junior Olympic Pool Play. If other situations arise we will use the same thinking to try and resolve them.

Too late

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

This is going to be a mess... and to make it even more fun it's a mess that we're only going to see in championship play which means that we won't be at all ready for it. And so it'll all get made up on the fly.
They better make a ruling for what happens when the girl due up is on base and they better make a rule for when you can pull her off base to solve that situation. For example, B10 is on base when B9 strikes out. If B10 is to be skipped can they then put B11 in for B10 or is it too late for that?

There is already a precedent for such a rule. It is in 8.9.C.2. This will probably be the ruling for such a situation.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

There is already a precedent for such a rule. It is in 8.9.C.2. This will probably be the ruling for such a situation.

Sort of, the problem is that you can't buy yourself out of a 8.9.C.2 out by courtesy running for your courtesy runner (because of 8.9.C.4 which is what justifies the latter part of C2). But you could get yourself out of a substitution problem with a switch if you did it before the out. But what about right when that spot is due up.

[xtremeump]

POOL-PLAY !!!!! Championship Play is Book Rule.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

POOL-PLAY !!!!! Championship Play is Book Rule.

Seems like Championship Play becomes the exception now.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Seems like Championship Play becomes the exception now.

Like it or note, Pool Play is championship play

[xtremeump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Like it or note, Pool Play is championship play

Pool Play are the games you play to get seeded for elimination games ��. Pool play is what this Rule is for, when you go to a Tournament where there are 60 (16)U teams playing, some teams try to beat the system by not winning on purpose. Then as Mr. Irish said they are playing elimination Games. Game On Then Book Rule. Really not a big deal, at the better Tournaments Teams only have at most 10 or 11 players. And I do Like it ��