Run scores ... or not... or yes it does 2 innings later

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Not the same. While the base SHOULD have been awarded, the runner never advanced and actually scored. If the OC doesn't know the runner should advance, HIS bad, too.

Although they are both misapplications of a rule; which I think is LJ's point.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Although they are both misapplications of a rule; which I think is LJ's point.

They are; but the similarity ends there.

In one case, the run scored; by rule, and in actuality, the runner advanced and touched home plate safely.

In the other case, the run SHOULD have scored, but never did; the runner stayed on third base without advancing and touching home. The run cannot score without scoring, can it?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

The issues of the rules misapplication should have been brought up immediately not an inning later (10-2-3i note). When the umpires did not allow the run at that point it was a misapplication and the rules do say when that should be addressed.

And yet, in the MLB example that was given, the run did count. And MLB rules are the same as FED Softball rules when it comes to protests of rule misapplications. So there is some precedent here.

I do have a problem with states that say they won't accept protests. That's fine when it comes to regular season games. But for post-season playoffs at the highest levels (e.g., regional/sectional and state as a minimum), something should be in place.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

They are; but the similarity ends there.

In one case, the run scored; by rule, and in actuality, the runner advanced and touched home plate safely.

In the other case, the run SHOULD have scored, but never did; the runner stayed on third base without advancing and touching home. The run cannot score without scoring, can it?

I understand the difference; just the point that umpire error eliminated the run.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I understand the difference; just the point that umpire error eliminated the run.

Sure... but the difference between the two scenarios is what makes the result different.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Sure... but the difference between the two scenarios is what makes the result different.

And so, we have answered the question, LJ and apparently recognized the point you were making.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I understand the difference; just the point that umpire error eliminated the run.

Ahhhhhhhh, see, right there is the semantical key to the whole thread.

In the OP case in Wisconsin, the administrative decision is that the umpire error did NOT eliminate the run. It simply created a scoring error, because the run DID score.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by atlumpsteve

ahhhhhhhh, see, right there is the semantical key to the whole thread.

In the op case in wisconsin, the administrative decision is that the umpire error did not eliminate the run. It simply created a scoring error, because the run did score.

ok

[Dakota]

What would have been the result if this was discovered the next day?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Dakota

What would have been the result if this was discovered the next day?

Good question. I know of a case where a football result was changed because of a scoring mistake - even though the now losing team actually ran out the clock on purpose at the end, and could have tried to score had they known they were actually down by one, and not up by one. (This involved a junior high scoring rule for PAT's kicked rather than thrown or run in).

I know of another case (football again) where the state ruled the score was final even after it was reviewed on film to be incorrect.

So who knows.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Manny A

And yet, in the MLB example that was given, the run did count. And MLB rules are the same as FED Softball rules when it comes to protests of rule misapplications. So there is some precedent here.

I do have a problem with states that say they won't accept protests. That's fine when it comes to regular season games. But for post-season playoffs at the highest levels (e.g., regional/sectional and state as a minimum), something should be in place.

I would stand by the ruling, based on the rule I stated, that the misapplication was not corrected at the moment of the error, it is not correctable.

This really depends on if the umpire stated "the run does not count", or if nothing was said and the scorer made the assumption the run does not score.

I have a big problem with using a MLB rule as the support for a NFHS softball ruling.

As for protests. The reason many states don't accept protests is simple. They simply do not have the ability to rule on protests in a timely manner to avoid impacting the entire post-season.

I will use Michigan for example.

We have Tuesday Pre-district games. If a game were to be protested in this game, they would have until Friday or Saturday to have the protest ruled upon, and if needed finish the game from the point of the protest.

What if the protest happen in a district semi-final Saturday morning. The state has 128 different districts being played, with the semi-finals played first, then the district finals.

Who would make a decision on a protest? Would it be up to the tourney manager (who is likely an AD, who often has no idea of the rules for softball)? Would it be the umpires? We don't have an UIC for HS events, so there is no neutral party at each site. Do they call into the state office for a ruling on a protest? What if documentation needs to be provided? Some of the schools barely have bathrooms around the fields, let alone the ability to provide information to the state office.

What happens if the semi-final is played, and Team A wins, but Team B protested something during the game. The district final is supposed to be played the same day, following the semi-finals. Do they postpone the district final? Do they play the district final which Team A is in. What if they play the final, but Team B's protest is upheld and the semi-final now needs to be replayed. Now you also may need to play the district final over because of the different outcome of the semi-final.

Allowing protests for misapplications of the rules sounds like a good idea, but in many cases it is not a practical endeavor because of the shear size of the event going on. In Michigan we have 128 districts almost all of which are played on Saturday after Memorial Day. Those each contain 3 games (SF, SF, Final), so we are talking about a lot of potential hassle if protests were allowed.

It can work much better in the event that it is a single site event. Events like ASA, NSA, or other single site tourney's can have protests rather easily. In those events you have a UIC on site that can make a ruling very quickly in the event of a protest, and as a result the entire event won't be delayed. That is not easily possible in high school softball statewide tourney's.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Good question. I know of a case where a football result was changed because of a scoring mistake - even though the now losing team actually ran out the clock on purpose at the end, and could have tried to score had they known they were actually down by one, and not up by one. (This involved a junior high scoring rule for PAT's kicked rather than thrown or run in).

I know of another case (football again) where the state ruled the score was final even after it was reviewed on film to be incorrect.

So who knows.

It seems to me that it is either a "clerical error" or a protest situation. I can't be a "clerical error" until the game ends, and then after everyone goes home, it is a protest situation and not correctable.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

As for protests. The reason many states don't accept protests is simple. They simply do not have the ability to rule on protests in a timely manner to avoid impacting the entire post-season.

I will use Michigan for example.

We have Tuesday Pre-district games. If a game were to be protested in this game, they would have until Friday or Saturday to have the protest ruled upon, and if needed finish the game from the point of the protest.

What if the protest happen in a district semi-final Saturday morning. The state has 128 different districts being played, with the semi-finals played first, then the district finals.

Who would make a decision on a protest? Would it be up to the tourney manager (who is likely an AD, who often has no idea of the rules for softball)? Would it be the umpires? We don't have an UIC for HS events, so there is no neutral party at each site. Do they call into the state office for a ruling on a protest? What if documentation needs to be provided? Some of the schools barely have bathrooms around the fields, let alone the ability to provide information to the state office.

What happens if the semi-final is played, and Team A wins, but Team B protested something during the game. The district final is supposed to be played the same day, following the semi-finals. Do they postpone the district final? Do they play the district final which Team A is in. What if they play the final, but Team B's protest is upheld and the semi-final now needs to be replayed. Now you also may need to play the district final over because of the different outcome of the semi-final.

Allowing protests for misapplications of the rules sounds like a good idea, but in many cases it is not a practical endeavor because of the shear size of the event going on. In Michigan we have 128 districts almost all of which are played on Saturday after Memorial Day. Those each contain 3 games (SF, SF, Final), so we are talking about a lot of potential hassle if protests were allowed.

It can work much better in the event that it is a single site event. Events like ASA, NSA, or other single site tourney's can have protests rather easily. In those events you have a UIC on site that can make a ruling very quickly in the event of a protest, and as a result the entire event won't be delayed. That is not easily possible in high school softball statewide tourney's.

Give me a break. Have you ever worked tournament play in Little League? Williamsport is the final arbiter of any and all protests during tourney games, even down to the district level. Their policy is, and has been for as long as I remember, that a manager may protest a rule misinterpretation, and if he/she isn't happy with the umpire's decision after the umpires get together to discuss, he/she may elevate it up to the tournament director, then the regional headquarters, and finally to LL HQ. What LL HQ says is final.

There are probably thousands of LL district games going on starting the last week in June in the US alone. Who knows how many others are taking place in the international regions. I would hazard a guess and say maybe five to ten times as many games. The chances are pretty good that W-port is dealing with hundreds of protests every day during district play. And I'm guessing that the staff at W-port that handles protests numbers maybe 10-15 people, tops.

When a rules misapplication protest is lodged, the game is stopped immediately, and not restarted until the protest is resolved. There is no "keep playing and we'll resolve the protest within 24 hours" like you see in MLB play. They get it taken care of right then and there so that it doesn't affect play later.

As a district UIC and tournament director in past years, I've had to deal with a few protests in our local LL. It usually takes anywhere from 10-20 minutes to get a protest all the way up to W-port and get an answer back. Once that answer was received, the game started right back up. The only impact was a slip in the daily schedule of games. No biggie.

So I laugh when someone says that a state cannot handle protests. Even in your "extreme" scenario of 128 districts, the probability of a more than ten protests being lodged at any one time for the state staff to deal with is infinitesimal. And if it really feels that it cannot handle it, then the state staff should delegate protest resolution to the next lower level. It can be easily organized well ahead of time, the right people contacted to let them know of their responsibilities, and be ready and announced before the first pitch of post-season play. It just takes a little initiative. JMO, but for states that say they can't do it, they are just shirking their duty.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

WIAA softball: Umpires' decision gives Madison La Follette controversial win over Middleton : Prep-zone

Opinions on how this played out?

To start, how in the name of Laverne De Fazio does any ONE, let alone an entire crew, with such limited knowledge of a simple scoring rule get assigned a game of this magnitude? Yes, to many of us, it may not be that important a game, but to the state of Wisconsin it is.

I understand and do not disagree with Steve. The event occurred and the run scored as they already ruled in the first appeal.

Yet the point of the timing being made is not without merit in a regular situation. Unfortunately, how is a coach to know how to effect a proper and timely protest when the sanctioning association does not permit them? That point alone, IMO, discredits the entire program and is somewhat of a cowardly position to be allowed to exist.

The WIAA has brought this onto themselves and since they are not operating in accordance with NFHS rules, special circumstances exist and there needs to be some common sense applied. As umpires, we recognize this on a regular basis when dealing with half-assed "local" or "league" rules which contradict the rule book of the sanctioning body.

So, I'm on board with Steve and scoring the run. Any complaints about that should be addressed to the weak management of the WIAA.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Give me a break. Have you ever worked tournament play in Little League? Williamsport is the final arbiter of any and all protests during tourney games, even down to the district level. Their policy is, and has been for as long as I remember, that a manager may protest a rule misinterpretation, and if he/she isn't happy with the umpire's decision after the umpires get together to discuss, he/she may elevate it up to the tournament director, then the regional headquarters, and finally to LL HQ. What LL HQ says is final.

There are probably thousands of LL district games going on starting the last week in June in the US alone. Who knows how many others are taking place in the international regions. I would hazard a guess and say maybe five to ten times as many games. The chances are pretty good that W-port is dealing with hundreds of protests every day during district play. And I'm guessing that the staff at W-port that handles protests numbers maybe 10-15 people, tops.

When a rules misapplication protest is lodged, the game is stopped immediately, and not restarted until the protest is resolved. There is no "keep playing and we'll resolve the protest within 24 hours" like you see in MLB play. They get it taken care of right then and there so that it doesn't affect play later.

As a district UIC and tournament director in past years, I've had to deal with a few protests in our local LL. It usually takes anywhere from 10-20 minutes to get a protest all the way up to W-port and get an answer back. Once that answer was received, the game started right back up. The only impact was a slip in the daily schedule of games. No biggie.

So I laugh when someone says that a state cannot handle protests. Even in your "extreme" scenario of 128 districts, the probability of a more than ten protests being lodged at any one time for the state staff to deal with is infinitesimal. And if it really feels that it cannot handle it, then the state staff should delegate protest resolution to the next lower level. It can be easily organized well ahead of time, the right people contacted to let them know of their responsibilities, and be ready and announced before the first pitch of post-season play. It just takes a little initiative. JMO, but for states that say they can't do it, they are just shirking their duty.

I am just going by what I've been told by the MHSAA as their reasoning for not accepting protests. Your use of Little League as the example is not comparable to most high school athletic associations. The simplest reason? Competency, as in LL has some and most high school associations lack what is needed in that regard.

Simply put, most high school athletic associations care about three things, football, basketball, and money. Anything beyond that, they try to find the cheapest way out. The proper way to handle this would be to have a UIC available at either the district or regional level (1 UIC should be able to handle protests from 4 districts simultaneously via telephone) in the case of protests. Heck if the association office were to be available they could handle all protests from across the state on district Saturday, but they aren't available.

Should protests be allowed in the post-season? They should, but I know in Michigan you won't see them anytime soon.

What I do find interesting is that some sports do allow protests within their rules without requiring state association adoption. Track and Field is a perfect example, and swimming files suit with basically the same rules.

Track and Field uses the following procedure. First, the offended team appeals the decision to the meet referee. The meet referee rules on the appeal. If the meet referee's decision is not made to the satisfaction of the offended team, the jury of appeals is brought in for a final say on the matter. The referee (not the offended team) presents the facts of the situation to the jury of appeals, which then votes on the appeal. They can either uphold or deny the appeal.

I have had the privilege of and have been the cause of a jury of appeals in track and field meets. I made a mistake at a regional meet many years ago that ended up going to the jury of appeals. The coach didn't like the ruling, but the correct rule was enforced after my mistake. I also had the chance to serve on the jury of appeals at a track state meet several years ago. We got together and made the decision to deny the appeal.

If state associations could get together and have a similar jury of appeals at the state level, they could likely have a easy method to handle protests. You would need 5 people at the state association office on game day (district and regionals) or on site (all finals are played at the same place). The district crews would need a designated crew chief that would call the appeal into the state office for a ruling by the jury of appeals.

One caveat about the jury of appeals in Michigan. At the state meet level the jury of appeals "fee" is $100 to appeal because it slows down the meet.