Run scores ... or not... or yes it does 2 innings later

[MD Longhorn]

WIAA softball: Umpires' decision gives Madison La Follette controversial win over Middleton : Prep-zone

Opinions on how this played out?

[Dakota]

This is my view.

This should have been treated like a protest. Assuming the game was played under protest from the time of the reversed ruling, then the game should have then been re-played from that point forward. If, OTOH, the game was NOT being played under protest, then, too bad, so sad. Merely adding the run 2 innings later was not correct, in my opinion.

It will be interesting to hear if the UIC for Wisconsin high school softball makes any comment.

[MD Longhorn]

"A phone call was even placed to Marcy Thurwachter, the WIAA assistant director in charge of softball, to affirm the umpires’ decision to end the game with the reversed call."

I think we talked about this once before. I think my view at the time was the same as yours, Dakota - the decision regarding whether the run scored or not was made (incorrectly) and if it was to be changed it needed to be protested at that moment.

However, I believe we were told (and my fuzzy memory does not recall by whom, or whether it was NFHS or ASA to be completely honest) that the run scored when it scored. The umpires did not disallow it because they believed the appeal occurred before the run scoring - the removal of the run from the board at that point was not a judgement call or a rule error, but rather a SCORING error - which can (and must) be corrected when discovered, even if 2 innings later.

I can truly see both sides of this.

[Andy]

Ok....the umpires screwed the pooch by not allowing the run when they should have.

The LaFollette coaches should have protested at that point, got the rulebook out, called the UIC, whatever, and get it fixed right then and there. Don't dig through the rulebook for an inning and a half to make sure you are right. At that point, in my opinion, it's too late.

I don't see this as a scoring error....for me, that's a run that scored that wasn't added to the teams total. This was a ruling that a run did not score and a misinterpretation of a rule...a protestable situation. Since the protest was not officially filed prior to the next pitch....the right to protest is gone.

[Rich]

It's a fascinating discussion that really requires someone more important than most of us to make a (seemingly) arbitrary decision.

I also see both sides of this.

If the umpires acknowledge that the runner crossed the plate before the appeal at second, the run scores BY RULE. Why would the umpire saying that the run does not score have any bearing at that point?

OTOH, it's a rule misinterpretation. Should be handled under protest procedures. BTW, the WIAA does not acknowledge protests.

[DRJ1960]

IF the umpires were unsure, what should they have done at that moment in 5th inning?

Go find a rule book?
Call the boss?

Tough deal any way you go.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

WIAA softball: Umpires' decision gives Madison La Follette controversial win over Middleton : Prep-zone

Opinions on how this played out?

To start, how in the name of Laverne De Fazio does any ONE, let alone an entire crew, with such limited knowledge of a simple scoring rule get assigned a game of this magnitude? Yes, to many of us, it may not be that important a game, but to the state of Wisconsin it is.

I understand and do not disagree with Steve. The event occurred and the run scored as they already ruled in the first appeal.

Yet the point of the timing being made is not without merit in a regular situation. Unfortunately, how is a coach to know how to effect a proper and timely protest when the sanctioning association does not permit them? That point alone, IMO, discredits the entire program and is somewhat of a cowardly position to be allowed to exist.

The WIAA has brought this onto themselves and since they are not operating in accordance with NFHS rules, special circumstances exist and there needs to be some common sense applied. As umpires, we recognize this on a regular basis when dealing with half-assed "local" or "league" rules which contradict the rule book of the sanctioning body.

So, I'm on board with Steve and scoring the run. Any complaints about that should be addressed to the weak management of the WIAA.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

To start, how in the name of Laverne De Fazio does any ONE, let alone an entire crew, with such limited knowledge of a simple scoring rule get assigned a game of this magnitude? Yes, to many of us, it may not be that important a game, but to the state of Wisconsin it is.

I understand and do not disagree with Steve. The event occurred and the run scored as they already ruled in the first appeal.

Yet the point of the timing being made is not without merit in a regular situation. Unfortunately, how is a coach to know how to effect a proper and timely protest when the sanctioning association does not permit them? That point alone, IMO, discredits the entire program and is somewhat of a cowardly position to be allowed to exist.

The WIAA has brought this onto themselves and since they are not operating in accordance with NFHS rules, special circumstances exist and there needs to be some common sense applied. As umpires, we recognize this on a regular basis when dealing with half-assed "local" or "league" rules which contradict the rule book of the sanctioning body.

So, I'm on board with Steve and scoring the run. Any complaints about that should be addressed to the weak management of the WIAA.

To answer the bold part. Read the rulebook. This is the same way the umpires should have known to handle the situation properly as in the rules. The umpires really should have known the rule considering it is in the rules covering umpires and their duties.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

To answer the bold part. Read the rulebook. This is the same way the umpires should have known to handle the situation properly as in the rules. The umpires really should have known the rule considering it is in the rules covering umpires and their duties.

Make up your mind. In one post, you complain there is a lack of competency and in the next you fault them for what you just used as an excuse.

Stupid is as stupid does and apparently, there was a whole lot of stupid going on in the WIAA, and any other association that is too lazy to accommodate the game and those who play it. Of course, JMHO.

[Andy]

I have learned that this particular situation was passed on to an ASA National Umpire Staff member who is also the chair of the NFHS Softball Rules Committee.

Here is JJ's response to the situation:

OMG!
When the batter flew out for the second out of the inning, no runners were forced to advance. R2 on second base was not a force out on appeal, it was a "timing" play, since R1 scored before the third out of the inning, (and it was not a force out) R1's run should have been allowed. Umpires made an incorrect ruling when they took the run off the board. Because the out at 2B was the third out of the inning, the offended team on offense needed to appeal before all infielders left the field that the umpires ruled incorrectly. Since this did not happen, the incorrect ruling stands and the run was removed.
The umpires ruled incorrectly a second time when several innings later they gave the run back. Again, it was to late to appeal the incorrect ruling by the umpires.
* Rule 2-1-1 Appeal...A play or rule violation on which the umpire does not make a ruling on until requested by a coach or player as in (7-1-2; 8-6-6 through 9); Rule 2-1-2b. Types of Appeals...... Leaving a base on a caught fly ball before the ball is first touched.
* Rule 2-63.... A Timing Play is a play when the last out of an inning is not the result of a force out and the exact time of the out may or may not allow a run to score. If a runner should touch home base an instant before the last out (which is not a force out) is made, then the run would be scored. If a runner should touch home base an instant after the last out, then no run would be scored.
* Rule 2-1-4b...When Appeals May Be Made: at the end of a half-inning, before all the infielders have left fair territory and the catcher vacates her normal fielding position.

[MD Longhorn]

Ugh. Not sure if that makes me feel any better, that someone that high up would so egregiously confuse the difference between "protest" and "appeal". NONE of this (well, other than getting the runner out for leaving 2nd too early) involves "an appeal". Yuck.

[chapmaja]

So in conclusion,

We all agree the umpires kicked the call initially by not counting the run when it should have been counted.

We seem to have a disagreement about the change being made when it is was changed based on the timing of when the misapplication of the rule was questioned.

I have already stated my opinion on this matter, and my opinion has not changed on bit.