Thoughts on a Look-Back Rule case

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by youngump

I've made this point before to a chilly reception. But here's how I see it: If the pitcher was ready to pitch then this is a leaving early situation and that rule states that the player must maintain contact with the base. Get the out.

If the pitcher was not ready to pitch then this is a lookback rule situation. The player did not "leave" the base if her foot was straight above it, she just didn't maintain contact with it. Do not call her out.

But that wasn't the sitch in Post#13. You had a runner who while trying to gain an advantage by seeing F2's signal to F1, lost contact with the base while the ball was in the possession F1 in the circle.
Wether the pitcher was ready to pitch or not ready to pitch has no bearing.
The runner wasn't 'cleaning dirt from her cleats' here......this is an out.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by youngump

If leave means to lose contact with (as most everyone here thinks it does) then there is no way to avoid calling this out. I just don't see how that's a natural reading and the consequences of it don't make the game better.

Personal feelings aside, I don't see how you can interpret losing contact with the base as not leaving. If she gets tagged while her foot hovers over the bag, you will have an out, no question. If she leans over to watch a fielder catch a fly ball, and her foot comes off but is still over the bag at the time of the catch, and then she takes off for her next base without retouching the bag, there is no doubt she is subject to an appeal for failing to tag up properly.

So I don't see any rationale in arguing for a different result under one rule versus all the others when it comes to a runner not being in contact with the base, just because it doesn't make the game better. The runner knows her responsibilities.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Speaking of justifying a call or no-call, from where does this "leave" versus "lose contact" comparison come?

ASA 8.7.S; NFHS 8.6.18 clearly state the runner is out if they lose contact with the base, not "leave" the base.

NCAA 12.20.1 & 12.20.2 also mentions losing contact with the base, but mixes in the notion of "leaving" the base.

Yes, a player shuffling or switching feet contacting the base has nothing to do with the rule at hand and it is clear the purpose of the rule is to keep the offense from gaining some type of edge and changing feet does not do that.

However, if the runner is leaning toward the next base or behind a base and in each case loses contact, that can place them in an advantageous position.

I see the "lose contact" as a standard set to eliminate the "buts" and "what ifs" and "spirit of the rule" arguments people, including umpires, raise to avoid addressing a possible violation.

If the player is losing contact to try and steal the signals, that can be an advantage gained that may have not been available had the not violated the rule.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

That being said (Cecil's and Agr8's comments), my situation this weekend was, me in "C", R1 on 2B, her ready position had her rear foot on the bag.
In order to get a look at F2's signal, R1 leaned forward, bringing her rear foot waaay up off the bag, then back down. No early lead, no toying with F1.

What say you in that sit?

My personal opinion on this. I am calling an out. Why? Her actions, of leaning with her foot off the base would appear to be an attempt to gain an advantage.

The rules require a batter to maintain contact with the base until the ball is released from the pitchers hand. This portion of the rule is specifically designed to prevent a runner from gaining an advantage. By leaning with her foot off the base, even though it might have been above the base was done with the apparent intent to gain an advantage, thus an out call.

I find this different than a player who, well on the base does a little hop to switch feet, but maintains and otherwise stationary position, or a player who while getting into position, loses contact slightly with the side of the base, as players often do. I need to see them trying to gain some sort of advantage, which stealing the signs is.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

...I need to see them trying to gain some sort of advantage, ...

Why?

I look at it differently. If the player is only "technically" losing contact (i.e. shifting feet, etc.) then I ignore it. I don't make "gotcha" calls.

OTOH, if she is cluelessly standing off to the side of the bag with no real attempt to make contact, the I'll make that call.

Requiring a standard of "advantage gained" is too narrow, and probably too inconsistent situation to situation (and, too "basketball-like" )

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking of justifying a call or no-call, from where does this "leave" versus "lose contact" comparison come?

ASA 8.7.S; NFHS 8.6.18 clearly state the runner is out if they lose contact with the base, not "leave" the base.

NCAA 12.20.1 & 12.20.2 also mentions losing contact with the base, but mixes in the notion of "leaving" the base.

Yes, a player shuffling or switching feet contacting the base has nothing to do with the rule at hand and it is clear the purpose of the rule is to keep the offense from gaining some type of edge and changing feet does not do that.

However, if the runner is leaning toward the next base or behind a base and in each case loses contact, that can place them in an advantageous position.

I see the "lose contact" as a standard set to eliminate the "buts" and "what ifs" and "spirit of the rule" arguments people, including umpires, raise to avoid addressing a possible violation.

If the player is losing contact to try and steal the signals, that can be an advantage gained that may have not been available had the not violated the rule.

The relevant portion of the lookback rule states:
Once the runner stops at a base for any reason, the runner will be declared out if leaving the base.

The relevant portion of the leaving early rule states:
When the runner fails to keep contact with the base to which the runner is entitled until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand.

If you believe leave and lose contact with are the same thing than there is no difference between what can happen during a pitch and before it. If you hold that leave means not to simply lose contact with the bag but to move away from it then you understand the rules differently.

In colloquial usage it's the same. I'm touching my desk right now as I type. If I take my hands off my desk and move my chair back slightly, I will no longer be maintaining contact with my desk but nobody around me is going to think he just left his desk.

I continue to believe that whether intentional or not that wording distinction is clear and to the point, conforms to how the game is usually called, and matches the intent and spirit of the rules.

Now, I take it you don't call runners out for cleaning their cleats while the pitcher has the ball in the circle. How do you justify that by rule? I'm imagining this scenario:

Coach: Blue did you see her clean off her cleats.
Umpire: Yeah, so?
Coach: Well was she in contact with the base when she did so.
Umpire: No.
Coach: Then she's out.
Umpire: Coach go back to your dugout.
Coach: We protest your misapplication of the lookback rule.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by youngump

The relevant portion of the lookback rule states:
Once the runner stops at a base for any reason, the runner will be declared out if leaving the base.

The relevant portion of the leaving early rule states:
When the runner fails to keep contact with the base to which the runner is entitled until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand.

If you believe leave and lose contact with are the same thing than there is no difference between what can happen during a pitch and before it. If you hold that leave means not to simply lose contact with the bag but to move away from it then you understand the rules differently.

In colloquial usage it's the same. I'm touching my desk right now as I type. If I take my hands off my desk and move my chair back slightly, I will no longer be maintaining contact with my desk but nobody around me is going to think he just left his desk.

I continue to believe that whether intentional or not that wording distinction is clear and to the point, conforms to how the game is usually called, and matches the intent and spirit of the rules.

Now, I take it you don't call runners out for cleaning their cleats while the pitcher has the ball in the circle. How do you justify that by rule? I'm imagining this scenario:

Coach: Blue did you see her clean off her cleats.
Umpire: Yeah, so?
Coach: Well was she in contact with the base when she did so.
Umpire: No.
Coach: Then she's out.
Umpire: Coach go back to your dugout.
Coach: We protest your misapplication of the lookback rule.

At some point while the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the rule being violated morphs from the look back rule to the leaving early rule. So, when, exactly, does your enforcement standard change from leaving early to losing contact? 10 seconds from now, if she lifts her foot she would be out, but now she is not?

Do you think that change-over in interpretation is what the rule writers intend?

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Why?

I look at it differently. If the player is only "technically" losing contact (i.e. shifting feet, etc.) then I ignore it. I don't make "gotcha" calls.

OTOH, if she is cluelessly standing off to the side of the bag with no real attempt to make contact, the I'll make that call.

Requiring a standard of "advantage gained" is too narrow, and probably too inconsistent situation to situation (and, too "basketball-like" )

At the same time you say gaining an advantage is too narrow, you will still employee a similar situation if she "technically" loses contact switching feet, ect.

Every official, like it or not, uses advantage disadvantage in making at least some calls. If we are so technical that we follow the exact wording of the rules, we are making gotcha calls on plays like this.

Remember the job of the official is to implement the rules in a fair and equitable manner, not to play judge jury and executioner.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

At some point while the pitcher has the ball in the circle, the rule being violated morphs from the look back rule to the leaving early rule. So, when, exactly, does your enforcement standard change from leaving early to losing contact? 10 seconds from now, if she lifts her foot she would be out, but now she is not?

Do you think that change-over in interpretation is what the rule writers intend?

At the time the pitch starts, when else would the losing contact section make any sense. And no I don't think they intended this to be written as well as it is. But I do think they intend for it to be called based on how it's currently called. Does anybody think that the rules writer wants the runner who clears her cleats called out?

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I see the "lose contact" as a standard set to eliminate the "buts" and "what ifs" and "spirit of the rule" arguments people, including umpires, raise to avoid addressing a possible violation.

I agree with your post, however the wording itself does lend itself to discussion. Unfortunately I have a couple coaches in my area, and umpires, who are lawyers by trade.

If you ever want to have a discussion about the way rules are written, have it with a lawyer-coach or a lawyer-umpire. By nature they will pick every single word apart. This can be a good thing, but at the same time, it can be a negative when you are the umpire and they are the coach.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

At the same time you say gaining an advantage is too narrow, you will still employee a similar situation if she "technically" loses contact switching feet, ect. ...

Yes, at the same time. Because they are different standards.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I agree with your post, however the wording itself does lend itself to discussion. Unfortunately I have a couple coaches in my area, and umpires, who are lawyers by trade.

If you ever want to have a discussion about the way rules are written, have it with a lawyer-coach or a lawyer-umpire. By nature they will pick every single word apart. This can be a good thing, but at the same time, it can be a negative when you are the umpire and they are the coach.

Well, they can "think" whatever they want, doesn't mean they "know" and when it comes down to it, they can use all the references outside the game they want, I don't care.

And it only leads to a "discussion" when people think they know better and read into things looking for a nit to pick.

The rules are written for the game, not and grammar teacher or tech writer.