ASA Look Back case play

[Dakota]

In investigating the answer to a question on eteamz regarding "possession and control" for the look back rule to be in effect, I referred to ASA Case Play 8.8-67A.

Here it is for those without their Case Book handy...

R1 on 3B, F2 returns ball to F1 in the 8-foot circle who puts ball and glove between the legs to adjust headgear. R1 comes off of 3B and stops.

RULING: Time out is called and look back rule does not apply. As the ball must be held. (8-7T) (weird punctuation in ruling is in the original)

I've underlined & bolded the part that I'm wondering about.

ASA is saying they want the umpire to call time here (apparently urequested by either team). What if R1 doesn't stop, but breaks for home and scores? If I declare time was called, I'll have one upset offensive coach!

What do you think?

[DaveASA/FED]

Sorry Dakota I am the one who brought it up on eteamz. I was told at a State ump clinic that as soon as she took off the glove to put it between her legs call time. This would eliminate the problem. But I agree with your point of this almost takes away something from the offense as the defense should be smart enough to call time before any adjustments are made.

What does anyone else think? Also based on this casebook play what would everyone say to a pitcher that puts the ball next to her body and holds it there with her wrist or elbow? Does she retain control? brief situation is she has a broken finger on left hand, she would catch the ball then place and retain it next to body with left wrist or elbow then grab with right hand step onto rubber etc.

Never had is happen in the game but wondered what to call if a girl took off when pitch had ball trapped next to side.

[kono]

Don't confuse the definition of a catch with control. She still has control of the ball. She can just as easily take the ball from under her arm as she can out of a glove.

All continuous action has ceased - don't make life any more complicated than it already is.

JMHO

-Kono

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by DaveASA/FED
Sorry Dakota I am the one who brought it up on eteamz. I was told at a State ump clinic that as soon as she took off the glove to put it between her legs call time. This would eliminate the problem. But I agree with your point of this almost takes away something from the offense as the defense should be smart enough to call time before any adjustments are made.

What does anyone else think? Also based on this casebook play what would everyone say to a pitcher that puts the ball next to her body and holds it there with her wrist or elbow? Does she retain control? brief situation is she has a broken finger on left hand, she would catch the ball then place and retain it next to body with left wrist or elbow then grab with right hand step onto rubber etc.

Never had is happen in the game but wondered what to call if a girl took off when pitch had ball trapped next to side.

If the ball is not being held in the pitcher's hand(s) or inside a glove being held by the pitcher's hand(s), it is not considered to be in control of the pitcher.

As far as calling time, that is preventive umpiring. You may think it shortchanges the offense, but anyone who has been around the game a while will recognize that defenses also use this as a decoy to lure runners into a jeopardizing position. The umpire is just better off killing the play, if possible. If the runner is more than half-way, I let the play ride.

[Andy]

I know that we are talking an ASA interp here, but didn't FED have an interp that in this same case, the ball was considered in the control of the pitcher and the look-back rule was in effect?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CecilOne
[B]In case anyone missed this last week:

Originally posted by VaASAump
... snip ... "BUT BLUE, DOESN'T A TEAM MEETING IN THE CIRCLE REMOVE THE LOOK BACK RULE?"
... snip ...

I agree with Mike (Mike, are you sure you don't want to call any more fastpitch games again? ).

I think that I would also take the preventive umpiring a step further. I would walk out to the pitcher's plate, and while brushing if off, I would remind the pitcher to ask for time to be granted before removing their glove with ball inside from their hand. (You know, the "discreet" conversation between just you and the pitcher).

And yes, I have seen this (very rarely) used by the defense to lure the runners to come off the bags. But I mostly see this happen when time has already been called (i.e. PU brushing of home plate, time was already granted to a baserunner and ball has not been put back into play, etc).

Hope this makes sense. My writing skills aren't that great.

[IHSAIllini]

The way I read this is that because she is doing something akin to tying her shoes, ASA wants blue to immediately call time.

Practically speaking, I am almost certain that the pitchers I umpire for would request time before adjusting anything, but that comes from living in a community of lawyers.

[WestMichBlue]

ANDY - "I know that we are talking an ASA interp here, but didn't FED have an interp that in this same case, the ball was considered in the control of the pitcher and the look-back rule was in effect?"

ASA says the pitcher must have control of the ball which basically means, as Mike noted, that the ball must be in a hand. ASA does not think a pitcher has control of the ball if it is tucked under her chin.

NFHS only requires the the pitcher have possession of the ball. Holding the ball between the knees while she tucks up her hair is possession.

WMB