Batting Out of Order, Volume 2

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Andy

I think I said this.....

Yes, you did. I thought maybe it needed to be said again. But, then, perhaps saying it again won't help, either.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I don't see a mess at all. We don't control WHEN the appeal is made; we only rule on the appeal based on the situation at hand. You are making this WWWWAAAAYYYYY too complicated.

Yes, the ruling will depend on the actual situation at the time of the appeal. Period. Full stop.

It will not depend on the situation earlier if only the team had appealed earlier, and certainly not some theoretical situation that might happen later.

I agree with everything you say here. So we may be talking past each other a little bit.

Three situations to rule on if you would just so I understand your position exactly.

B2 singles batting for B1. B1 doubles. B3 comes up to bat and takes a pitch. Defense appeals that B3 is batting out of order.

B2 singles batting for B1. B1 doubles. B3 comes up to bat. B2 scores on a wild pitch. Defense appeals that B3 is batting out of order.

B2 singles batting for B1. B1 doubles. B3 comes up to bat. B2 scores on a B3 single. Defense appeals that B3 has batted out of order.

[MD Longhorn]

None of those three illustrate the relevant point. I think I agree with you (mostly) on all three of those that you just posted.

1) Appeal denied - B3 is the correct batter.
2) If appeal is honored, the only penalty here would be putting B2 in the box. So see below.
3) Appeal denied - B3 was the correct batter.

Here's the one I think we disagree on (pulling aside any fluff).

B2 bats for B1 and singles. B1 then bats advancing B2 to third. B2 scores on a wild pitch. B3 hits a single, scoring B1. THEN the appeal is asked for.

7-2-D-4 says that if AT THE TIME OF APPEAL, the proper batter was on base, that batter is skipped. But in this scenario, B2 was NOT on base when B3 singled. B1 was the previous batter.

The added wrinkle is this - given that there was nothing to alert umpires to any need to memorize who was on base at any point ... it's possible (maybe probable) that the umpire is unaware that B2 was on base way back at the beginning of B3's at bat. All he knows is that B3 just hit, and he might know that B1 just crossed the plate. Asking the scorekeeper (unless we've got a collegel level scorekeeper and not just some parent) MIGHT get us the information that B1 was the kid that just scored on B3's hit, if PU didn't happen to notice and/or everyone was already in the dugout when this appeal is made.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

3) Appeal denied - B3 was the correct batter.

Let's stick to this one for a minute if we could.

B2 singles batting for B1. B1 doubles. B3 comes up to bat. B2 scores on a B3 single. Defense appeals that B3 has batted out of order.

I agree that the appeal should be denied. But I don't think that you doing so is consistent. AT THE TIME OF THE APPEAL, b2 is not on base. So why isn't b2 the correct batter?

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Here's the one I think we disagree on (pulling aside any fluff).

B2 bats for B1 and singles. B1 then bats advancing B2 to third. B2 scores on a wild pitch. B3 hits a single, scoring B1. THEN the appeal is asked for.

We do disagree if you're planning to call B3 out. This only differs from the previous one in that B2 scored a pitch sooner. But at the time of the appeal B2 is not on base.

Let's get really wild here with your theory. Is this all right? B3 bats followed by B2 and then B1 and all are walked. B4 takes a ball and then a wild pitch which scores B3. Not wanting to press his advantage the coach appeals that B4 is batting out of order and insists that B3 take over. You oblige. The pitcher throws wild and B2 scores. The coach insists that B3 is now batting out of order and insists you put B2 in the box. You oblige.

[vcblue]

I don't know what else to say but this.

No where in 7-2-D (2014) does it say at the time of the appeal. It says when BOO is discovered.

In the original scenario of this post we have B2 on 3rd, B1 on 1st. We have B3 at bat and s/he has received a pitch.

The BO was reestablished once B3 received a pitch with B2 on base so there is no BOO to discover . I think this is what is not being understood

As far as figuring this out on the field. That's what we get paid to do.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Except B2 is not on base... but why let that stop us.

So what?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by youngump

I agree with everything you say here. So we may be talking past each other a little bit....B2 singles batting for B1. B1 doubles. B3 comes up to bat. B2 scores on a B3 single. Defense appeals that B3 has batted out of order.

Well, since B2 is no longer on base, B3 is an improper batter so her at bat is nullified, which puts B2 back on base, so B3 is the proper batter.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Well, since B2 is no longer on base, B3 is an improper batter so her at bat is nullified, which puts B2 back on base, so B3 is the proper batter.

What does B2 not being on base have to do with any of it? Let me save you the trouble, nothing.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What does B2 not being on base have to do with any of it? Let me save you the trouble, nothing.

It does matter, it just doesn't matter when MD and Dakota think it does. If B2 gets on base and then B1 gets a hit and then B3 takes a pitch then whether B2 was on base at the time of the pitch definitely matters. (If she is B3 is the correct batter because B2 is skipped for being on base if not B3 is now batting out of order.)

The difficulty here that we're arguing about is that they believe that it matters whether B2 is on base at the time of the appeal and some of us believe that it only matters if she's on base at the time of the first pitch.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

What does B2 not being on base have to do with any of it? Let me save you the trouble, nothing.

Originally Posted by youngump

It does matter, it just doesn't matter when MD and Dakota think it does. ....

I guess the was missed...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by youngump

It does matter, it just doesn't matter when MD and Dakota think it does. If B2 gets on base and then B1 gets a hit and then B3 takes a pitch then whether B2 was on base at the time of the pitch definitely matters. (If she is B3 is the correct batter because B2 is skipped for being on base if not B3 is now batting out of order.)

The difficulty here that we're arguing about is that they believe that it matters whether B2 is on base at the time of the appeal and some of us believe that it only matters if she's on base at the time of the first pitch.

It does NOT matter. B3 is the legal batter as B2 was NOT available at the time a batter is called to the box. There are no guest, substitute, ghost, temporary, fill-in, whatever the **** you want to call it, batter. A batter was due up and B3 was the next available batter in the order. B3 is the legal batter and will complete that turn at bat unless replaced by a legal substitute. The ODB is B4 with B5 in the hole.