Force out or not

[chapmaja]

Ok, had this play today. Runners at first and second. Looper is hit behind first base and goes off the glove of the F4. Wasn't an infield fly situation due to the fact it was not reasonable effort to catch the ball, it would have been a very good diving catch. Anyway, due to the possibility of a catch, R2 (on first) does not take off for 2nd, until the ball hits. F4 picks up the ball and throws to second. F6 is catches the ball, steps on the base and then applies a tag to R2 coming from first to second. As she tags the runner (about half second after touching the base) the ball comes out. I call the runner out on a force out, which sends the offensive team and fans balistic.

After talking to my partners (3 man on a JV game) following the game, we all agreed that it was the correct call. She had possession when she caught the ball and it was a subsequent action (tagging the retired runner), that caused the ball to come out. Correct call? I am basing my ruling in part based on the previous discussion we had about this. I felt there was enough time to indicate a catch of the ball and that a subsequent act, the tag caused the ball to come loose.

[BretMan]

Did she have control of the ball when she stepped on the base? If so...end of story. What happened after that doesn't matter. The runner was already out before the second tag happened.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Did she have control of the ball when she stepped on the base? If so...end of story. What happened after that doesn't matter. The runner was already out before the second tag happened.

Yes, she had control, thus I called the out. That was my opinion as well.

Here is a scenario I thought of as well.

What if instead of 1/2 second later, the retired runner had run into the player (who wasn't making a play on anyone else), 2 seconds later and the ball came out. The timing should not matter on this play because she had control at the moment she touched the base, which is the requirement for a force out.

One of my partners did make a good point though. The definition of a catch does require a voluntary release of the ball. When she reached down and applied the tag and the ball came out, it wasn't a voluntary release.

I still stand by my call though.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Yes, she had control, thus I called the out. That was my opinion as well.

Here is a scenario I thought of as well.

What if instead of 1/2 second later, the retired runner had run into the player (who wasn't making a play on anyone else), 2 seconds later and the ball came out. The timing should not matter on this play because she had control at the moment she touched the base, which is the requirement for a force out.

One of my partners did make a good point though. The definition of a catch does require a voluntary release of the ball. When she reached down and applied the tag and the ball came out, it wasn't a voluntary release.

I still stand by my call though.

In the real world, a voluntary release is not required. Yes, I know what the NFHS rule book states, but if the player can demonstrate control, I really don't care how the ball is released.

You are overthinking this. You got it right for the right reason.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

In the real world, a voluntary release is not required.

I agree.

Voluntary release proves control. But a lack of voluntary release does not prove a lack of control. VR is just one possible way to determine control - not the only way.

[HugoTafurst]

Would just like to add that The concern should be the definition of a tag (base), not the definition of a catch.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Ok, had this play today. Runners at first and second. Looper is hit behind first base and goes off the glove of the F4. Wasn't an infield fly situation due to the fact it was not reasonable effort to catch the ball, it would have been a very good diving catch. Anyway, due to the possibility of a catch, R2 (on first) does not take off for 2nd, until the ball hits. F4 picks up the ball and throws to second. F6 is catches the ball, steps on the base and then applies a tag to R2 coming from first to second. As she tags the runner (about half second after touching the base) the ball comes out. I call the runner out on a force out, which sends the offensive team and fans balistic.

After talking to my partners (3 man on a JV game) following the game, we all agreed that it was the correct call. She had possession when she caught the ball and it was a subsequent action (tagging the retired runner), that caused the ball to come out. Correct call? I am basing my ruling in part based on the previous discussion we had about this. I felt there was enough time to indicate a catch of the ball and that a subsequent act, the tag caused the ball to come loose.

Easy call. Stupid coach. And you really shouldn't be questioning yourself on this one at all.