Force out or not

[chapmaja]

Ok, had this play today. Runners at first and second. Looper is hit behind first base and goes off the glove of the F4. Wasn't an infield fly situation due to the fact it was not reasonable effort to catch the ball, it would have been a very good diving catch. Anyway, due to the possibility of a catch, R2 (on first) does not take off for 2nd, until the ball hits. F4 picks up the ball and throws to second. F6 is catches the ball, steps on the base and then applies a tag to R2 coming from first to second. As she tags the runner (about half second after touching the base) the ball comes out. I call the runner out on a force out, which sends the offensive team and fans balistic.

After talking to my partners (3 man on a JV game) following the game, we all agreed that it was the correct call. She had possession when she caught the ball and it was a subsequent action (tagging the retired runner), that caused the ball to come out. Correct call? I am basing my ruling in part based on the previous discussion we had about this. I felt there was enough time to indicate a catch of the ball and that a subsequent act, the tag caused the ball to come loose.

[BretMan]

Did she have control of the ball when she stepped on the base? If so...end of story. What happened after that doesn't matter. The runner was already out before the second tag happened.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Did she have control of the ball when she stepped on the base? If so...end of story. What happened after that doesn't matter. The runner was already out before the second tag happened.

Yes, she had control, thus I called the out. That was my opinion as well.

Here is a scenario I thought of as well.

What if instead of 1/2 second later, the retired runner had run into the player (who wasn't making a play on anyone else), 2 seconds later and the ball came out. The timing should not matter on this play because she had control at the moment she touched the base, which is the requirement for a force out.

One of my partners did make a good point though. The definition of a catch does require a voluntary release of the ball. When she reached down and applied the tag and the ball came out, it wasn't a voluntary release.

I still stand by my call though.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Yes, she had control, thus I called the out. That was my opinion as well.

Here is a scenario I thought of as well.

What if instead of 1/2 second later, the retired runner had run into the player (who wasn't making a play on anyone else), 2 seconds later and the ball came out. The timing should not matter on this play because she had control at the moment she touched the base, which is the requirement for a force out.

One of my partners did make a good point though. The definition of a catch does require a voluntary release of the ball. When she reached down and applied the tag and the ball came out, it wasn't a voluntary release.

I still stand by my call though.

In the real world, a voluntary release is not required. Yes, I know what the NFHS rule book states, but if the player can demonstrate control, I really don't care how the ball is released.

You are overthinking this. You got it right for the right reason.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Ok, had this play today. Runners at first and second. Looper is hit behind first base and goes off the glove of the F4. Wasn't an infield fly situation due to the fact it was not reasonable effort to catch the ball, it would have been a very good diving catch. Anyway, due to the possibility of a catch, R2 (on first) does not take off for 2nd, until the ball hits. F4 picks up the ball and throws to second. F6 is catches the ball, steps on the base and then applies a tag to R2 coming from first to second. As she tags the runner (about half second after touching the base) the ball comes out. I call the runner out on a force out, which sends the offensive team and fans balistic.

After talking to my partners (3 man on a JV game) following the game, we all agreed that it was the correct call. She had possession when she caught the ball and it was a subsequent action (tagging the retired runner), that caused the ball to come out. Correct call? I am basing my ruling in part based on the previous discussion we had about this. I felt there was enough time to indicate a catch of the ball and that a subsequent act, the tag caused the ball to come loose.

Easy call. Stupid coach. And you really shouldn't be questioning yourself on this one at all.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

In the real world, a voluntary release is not required.

I agree.

Voluntary release proves control. But a lack of voluntary release does not prove a lack of control. VR is just one possible way to determine control - not the only way.

[HugoTafurst]

Would just like to add that The concern should be the definition of a tag (base), not the definition of a catch.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Would just like to add that The concern should be the definition of a tag (base), not the definition of a catch.

+

[MDUmp]

3 man for a JV game? Your school district has too much money.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by MDUmp

3 man for a JV game? Your school district has too much money.

W-a-i-t for it...

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by MDUmp

3 man for a JV game? Your school district has too much money.

Or they have umpires that want to learn 3 person mechanics. I don't know their situation, but I know in my area this year we have scheduled all varisty games 3 person and are splitting the fees of 2 umpires between the 3 working the game. So for example, instead of 2 umpires making $60 for the game all 3 make $40. Costs the schools the same $$ and gives us a chance to help people learn the 3 umpire system. We have moved this to the JV games also at times, or if someone gets rained out or they find out the visiting team forgot they didn't have a freshman team till the day before the scheduled game one of those officials will show up and do 3 person on JV.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MDUmp

3 man for a JV game? Your school district has too much money.

Or, your association has too many umpires!

I suspect it would be difficult to put 2 umpires on every JV game here
(but, caveat, that is more of an impression than an informed statement... I'm not an assignor, so I don't REALLY know for sure.)

[chapmaja]

The reason for the 3 person mechanics was that it was a tourney. There were supposed to be 8 teams on 3 fields. One of the teams dropped out very late the night before. Instead of cancel umpires from the day, they used 3 umpires for the first two games of the day, then we split onto 3 fields for the third game of the day (2 person crews). The pool winners then met for a championship game which was also a 3 person crew.

It was more fair to keep the umpires on the games rather than cancel someone at the last minute. Since the school was not going to be refunded the entry fee, the money was already "in the pot" to pay all the umpires anyway, and the school made out better. We should have gotten $160 each for 4 game, plus 2 people getting and Extra $50 for the championship game. Instead 3 of the 6 umpires got $130 for 3 games, and 3 got $160. The school may be refunding some money though because they were supposedly promised 3 games, and all but the championship game participants only got 2 games.