How much rope, after you mess up?

[MD Longhorn]

OK... my trip to the dark side is nearly complete. Coaching last night ... umpire me would have ejected coach me about 6 times.

Wondering, though, if I was given huge amounts of rope because the umpires knew they kicked it (multiple times).

Early first game - grounder to 2nd, bad throw - fantastic swipe tag from my first baseman (my fans go insane cheering her play) but ... ... SAFE!!! I calmly (yes, really...) ask BU to go for help as he was almost certainly straight-lined and couldn't see the tag. PU (unfortunately, within my earshot) tells him, "I wasn't watching." He sheepishly looks at me as BU repeats the safe sign. I'm glaring but say nothing.

Sidenote - coaches and umpires at the plate conference agreed we'd go VERY easy on both pitchers. This was last place vs 2nd to last place - and both teams' real pitchers were not in attendance.

Next half inning... other team's pitcher windmills, my runner goes... pitcher doesn't release the ball, windmills again and pitches. BU bangs my runner out for leaving early. I get nowhere in my discussions with them (yes, both of them... nice mechanics guys).

A bit later... they have a runner on 3rd. Takes a normal lead off - line drive speared by my pitcher, who falls making the play. Runner continued home - we appeal at third. Safe! Really? Did she return ... EVER ... after the lead off? BU says no - but that the line drive was so fast she didn't have time to get off the base before it was caught. Really??????? So I point out that she lead off ... like runners do - as was off the base while the pitch was in the air, and ask again if she ever returned. He said she did not return, but ruled her safe anyway because, "The line drive was just hit too hard."

I go mini-ballistic here, but somehow stay in the game.

Game 2 - same umpires, new opponent. Suddenly, PU has lost his mind. 12-15 ankle-high pitches (probably about equally for both teams) were called strikes - three of them BOUNCED before reaching the plate ... all of them bounced before reaching the catcher. After the first inning, BOTH coaches (we discussed doing this as I was 3BC by the other team's dugout) approach and tell him quietly that he was killing us with the ankle-strikes.

Top of 2, my pitcher throws a swinging strike and then a 2nd pitch right down the middle. Ball. I ask, Where was that? PU points at the plate. I ask - was it high, low, what? His answer ... "looked good". I'm about to approach but my pitcher is already winding... and another right down freaking broadway. Other coach is already saying, "You've got to swing at those" ... BALL. I call time, steam coming out of my ears. Before I get there, the other coach says, "Come on Blue", then says my pitcher's name to get her attention and tells her it was perfect.

I don't remember EVERYTHING I said, and I didn't cuss - and only the catcher and he could have heard me... but I went on for at least a minute - fully expecting to be shown the gate. I do know "you have no business being on this field" and "you need to be at least as competent as the players" and "Do your job or get out of here and let BU do it for you" came out of my mouth.

(Interestingly, the next inning when I was 3BC, the other coach asked what I said and then said, "Wow - what do you have to do to get tossed around here?" )

My first utter conniption fit. The dark side was strong last night.

[nopachunts]

He probably didn't know where the line was that you crossed or how to toss you.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I adjudicate (Mark, Jr.'s loves to use that word to describe officiating basketball and umpiring baseball and fast pitch softball) three sports: basketball, baseball, and fast pitch softball (the only slow pitch softball that we umpire is Special Olympics), that said, if I know that a coach is a registered official in any sport: football, swimming and diving, track and field, soccer, etc., etc., he gets NO rope what so ever.

One can be a sports official and a coach, but he is always a sports official first and a coach second even when coaching, therefore: Act the way as a coach as you want coaches to act in the games you are officiating.

MTD, Sr.

[RKBUmp]

How you liking the dark side????? I was out of town for a couple of weeks and was unable to attend my daughters games, but did get to go to the last 2. She does now have an assistant coach, so I have been relegated to scorekeeping duty. While I was gone she did call me one night after they had an umpire who called the game from behind the circle, "because he calls a better game from there."

As it turns out we had the same umpire last night from my got to vent thread, and with much the same result. This time he passed all the bats including the 2 he tossed last time (insterstingly he missed 2 other bats that had some handle showing through the grip) but decided that a brand new batting helmet had to go because the face mask could slip up and down in one of the clamps about 1/4". He told me I had to tighten the clamp. I showed him the clamp was completely tight and nothing was going to stop it from moving. The clamp is captured between 2 cross bars and cannot move more than 1/4". Nope, helmet has to go, it is a safety issue. Assistant went to go out with daughter to pregame, nope, once again told her the pregame was restricted to head coaches and captains only.

Game was fairly uneventfull except for a strike zone that moved from ankles and bouncing off the plate to up around the girls eye balls and back to the plate again. One of our runners is tagged out at home but had to literally circle around 3rd to get home because F5 was standing on top of the base. Daughter goes out to ask about obstruction at 3rd, umpire explains he cant see the entire field by himself which is a reasonable enough explanation. She then asks what about both the pitcher and catcher standing on top of the plate, neither with the ball and the runner having to get around the catcher. He said he didnt have obstruction on that. Daughter more or less said whatever, lets play ball and started walking back to coaches box. Umpire follows her all the way to coaches box telling her he wanted to explain. She again says lets just play ball. Restricted to dugout. She asks why, he tells her she is being unsportsmanlike.

I go out to coach 1st base. I tell runner to steal on next pitch, ball half way to plate when he comes up yelling dead ball. Calls runner on 1st out for leaving early. Really? you just told us you cant see everything being 1 man system, but you can see a runner on 1st leave early while tracking the pitch?

Daughter called the athletic association this morning to file a complaint. She spoke with the director of officials who told her she was surprised to hear a complaint because they have never had anyone complain about the umpire before. Apparently she never read the email I sent her a month ago detailing all the bogus calls along with rule citations for the correct rulings. She then informs my daughter he is a "certified" high school umpire. Sure enough, I found his name in our register.

[MD Longhorn]

It's interesting.

On the coaching side, I'm enjoying seeing my daughter's love of the game grow, and I'm liking seeing the improvement of the other girls on the team and knowing I've helped them. I love seeing the light in their eyes when they do something great.

But when I was umpiring, half of my games were in tourneys here and there, and the local games I tended to get decent games and decent partners. And for high school games that's still the case. Having Joe Generic Umpire (or 2 of them) out there has really opened my eyes to how wide a range of umpires are being employed. Some really really good ones. Some absurdly ridiculous bad ones. Some rookies that give a crap that I can see getting better over the season. Some rookies that enjoy the money and the hot dogs and have no desire to learn a damn thing.

I definitely have a wider perspective on the whole thing, that's for sure.

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I adjudicate (Mark, Jr.'s loves to use that word to describe officiating basketball and umpiring baseball and fast pitch softball) three sports: basketball, baseball, and fast pitch softball (the only slow pitch softball that we umpire is Special Olympics), that said, if I know that a coach is a registered official in any sport: football, swimming and diving, track and field, soccer, etc., etc., he gets NO rope what so ever.

One can be a sports official and a coach, but he is always a sports official first and a coach second even when coaching, therefore: Act the way as a coach as you want coaches to act in the games you are officiating.

MTD, Sr.

You're admitting to prejudging?

[Andy]

We had a guy here locally several years ago that was an umpire with our association and a coach with a local HS and travel team.

The problem was that when he was coaching, he tried to umpire and when he was umpiring he tried to coach. In my opinion, he wasn't that good at either one.

I finally had a sit-down with him and told him that he really needed to pick one side or the other and concentrate on that. He decided to stick to coaching and has actually done quite well with it. He is been offered and accepted a position coaching a club level team in Eastern Europe.

[RKBUmp]

Andy, you telling me to stop coaching? LOL

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

You're admitting to prejudging?

Pre-judging who and what?

MTD, Sr.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Pre-judging who and what?

MTD, Sr.

Seems pretty obvious to me. You're prejudging that a coach who is also a sports official should know better than to argue his/her position during a game, and you're giving him/her no slack, whereas you might give a coach who acts similarly but doesn't officiate a bit more leeway.

You should treat everyone equally. A coach is just a coach for that game. It shouldn't matter to the game's officials what they do in other games. Clean slate is how you should handle it.

Have you ever coached your kid while you were an official? I have, and believe me, it's not easy to bite your tongue when you see your team get wronged by an official. I can tolerate the occasional banger that doesn't go our way, or the close pitch that I thought was missed. But when I see things as Mike described that are clearly a result of an umpire not doing his/her job out there, like the PU not watching for a swipe tag at first base or the BU not watching for a proper tag-up, that's not going to keep me quiet. I know if I were the umpire with that excuse, I would deserve a bit of an ass-chewing from the coach, and I would allow the vent, regardless if he/she is also an official or not.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Seems pretty obvious to me. You're prejudging that a coach who is also a sports official should know better than to argue his/her position during a game, and you're giving him/her no slack, whereas you might give a coach who acts similarly but doesn't officiate a bit more leeway.

You should treat everyone equally. A coach is just a coach for that game. It shouldn't matter to the game's officials what they do in other games. Clean slate is how you should handle it.

Have you ever coached your kid while you were an official? I have, and believe me, it's not easy to bite your tongue when you see your team get wronged by an official. I can tolerate the occasional banger that doesn't go our way, or the close pitch that I thought was missed. But when I see things as Mike described that are clearly a result of an umpire not doing his/her job out there, like the PU not watching for a swipe tag at first base or the BU not watching for a proper tag-up, that's not going to keep me quiet. I know if I were the umpire with that excuse, I would deserve a bit of an ass-chewing from the coach, and I would allow the vent, regardless if he/she is also an official or not.

I am speaking of unsportsmanlike conduct. I will always answer legitimate questions from coaches (even assistant coaches) when asked in a professional manner, but coaches who are also sports officials are always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) sports officials first and coaches second when it comes to the interactions with the game officials during the games they are coaching.

MTD, Sr.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am speaking of unsportsmanlike conduct. I will always answer legitimate questions from coaches (even assistant coaches) when asked in a professional manner, but coaches who are also sports officials are always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) sports officials first and coaches second when it comes to the interactions with the game officials during the games they are coaching.

MTD, Sr.

That's a good point.

I'm not exactly proud of my behavior, and it took quite a bit to get me there.

Your point makes me think, though. If I was wearing my old hat, and evaluating / training these guys - how would that conversation have gone after the game... Not well. Probably not as pointed... but not well.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

OK... my trip to the dark side is nearly complete. Coaching last night ... umpire me would have ejected coach me about 6 times.

Wondering, though, if I was given huge amounts of rope because the umpires knew they kicked it (multiple times).

Early first game - grounder to 2nd, bad throw - fantastic swipe tag from my first baseman (my fans go insane cheering her play) but ... ... SAFE!!! I calmly (yes, really...) ask BU to go for help as he was almost certainly straight-lined and couldn't see the tag. PU (unfortunately, within my earshot) tells him, "I wasn't watching." He sheepishly looks at me as BU repeats the safe sign. I'm glaring but say nothing.

Sidenote - coaches and umpires at the plate conference agreed we'd go VERY easy on both pitchers. This was last place vs 2nd to last place - and both teams' real pitchers were not in attendance.

Next half inning... other team's pitcher windmills, my runner goes... pitcher doesn't release the ball, windmills again and pitches. BU bangs my runner out for leaving early. I get nowhere in my discussions with them (yes, both of them... nice mechanics guys).

A bit later... they have a runner on 3rd. Takes a normal lead off - line drive speared by my pitcher, who falls making the play. Runner continued home - we appeal at third. Safe! Really? Did she return ... EVER ... after the lead off? BU says no - but that the line drive was so fast she didn't have time to get off the base before it was caught. Really??????? So I point out that she lead off ... like runners do - as was off the base while the pitch was in the air, and ask again if she ever returned. He said she did not return, but ruled her safe anyway because, "The line drive was just hit too hard."

I go mini-ballistic here, but somehow stay in the game.

Game 2 - same umpires, new opponent. Suddenly, PU has lost his mind. 12-15 ankle-high pitches (probably about equally for both teams) were called strikes - three of them BOUNCED before reaching the plate ... all of them bounced before reaching the catcher. After the first inning, BOTH coaches (we discussed doing this as I was 3BC by the other team's dugout) approach and tell him quietly that he was killing us with the ankle-strikes.

Top of 2, my pitcher throws a swinging strike and then a 2nd pitch right down the middle. Ball. I ask, Where was that? PU points at the plate. I ask - was it high, low, what? His answer ... "looked good". I'm about to approach but my pitcher is already winding... and another right down freaking broadway. Other coach is already saying, "You've got to swing at those" ... BALL. I call time, steam coming out of my ears. Before I get there, the other coach says, "Come on Blue", then says my pitcher's name to get her attention and tells her it was perfect.

I don't remember EVERYTHING I said, and I didn't cuss - and only the catcher and he could have heard me... but I went on for at least a minute - fully expecting to be shown the gate. I do know "you have no business being on this field" and "you need to be at least as competent as the players" and "Do your job or get out of here and let BU do it for you" came out of my mouth.

(Interestingly, the next inning when I was 3BC, the other coach asked what I said and then said, "Wow - what do you have to do to get tossed around here?" )

My first utter conniption fit. The dark side was strong last night.

Sounds like a guy I was working with yesterday for one of my games. I think he is still getting the roots out of the ground to move from his spot on the infield.

I know when I was still coaching, before I got into officiating as much, I was almost tossed from the state track meet.

Our relay had finished in 8th place, but the zone judge called us out of the zone on an exchange. The problems were 1) He was not in position to see where the baton was exchanged, and 2) he didn't even use the rule correctly. Out runner had stopped with both feet out of the exchange zone, but he hand back in the zone, where she got the baton. I was literally 5 feet away and watching it in line with the zone. I went ballistic, and we ended up having to appeal the DQ ($100 fee to do so, returned on a successful appeal).

The zone judge admitted he wasn't looking at the baton, only where the feet were. The rule is clear, where the baton is, so we got it overturned.

The funny part, I now regularly work with the official (not the zone judge), who almost tossed me out of the meet.

[PATRICK]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am speaking of unsportsmanlike conduct. I will always answer legitimate questions from coaches (even assistant coaches) when asked in a professional manner, but coaches who are also sports officials are always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) sports officials first and coaches second when it comes to the interactions with the game officials during the games they are coaching.

MTD, Sr.

Every coach, regardless of his or her background, should get treated the exact same way in any contest we officiate!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by PATRICK

Every coach, regardless of his or her background, should get treated the exact same way in any contest we officiate!

And I do. BUT, from an ethical conduct stand point: If you are a sports official who also coaches, even if your coach a sport that you do not officiate, you are a sports official first and must conduct yourself as a sports official even when coaching. In fact, when you attend a sporting event as a spectator, even if the sport is one you do not officiate, you are an official first and foremost and should conduct yourself accordingly.

I cannot tell you home many times when our sons were young jr. high school and younger. I coached their youth basketball teams and was a spectator at their summer league baseball games. The officials who adjudicate that level of games many times are either young officials trying to learn their profession or veteran officials who only care about collecting a game fee and do not give a donkey's backside whether the do a good job or not. But you can be assured that you could tell one way or another what I thought of an official's screw up especially when I was coaching the boy's basketball teams. I would even get upset when my "better half" would yell at the officials. The great thing is that the parents of our son's respected my position as a sports officials an my code of ethics.

MTD, Sr.