NCAA Mechanics Question

[hit4power]

I'm not an ump but interested in learning and value the input of the experts on the board.

Happened last week in Clermont....R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B. B3 is a lefty slapper who takes the normal run up on the first three pitches without offering or swinging. Count is 1 and 2. On the next pitch she bunts or slaps the pitch foul. PU rings her up for a foul bunt and DC comes out to argue. PU says he didn't see any wrist break so no swing, hence bunt. After more arguing PU confers with BU and then affirms the original call of foul bunt - out. DC then berates PU for going to his partner after making the call rather than before making the call.

So what's the preferred mechanic in this situation? Should PU have gone to BU to see if he saw bunt vs. slap before making the call?

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by hit4power

So what's the preferred mechanic in this situation? Should PU have gone to BU to see if he saw bunt vs. slap before making the call?

Not clear as to why the DC would argue if the PU rang the batter up for strike three?

Are you sure that the sitch wasn't the PU first calling it a SLAP...foul ball; DC argues it was a bunt, PU goes to BU for help, call changed to BUNT...foul with two strikes batter OUT; now OC comes out a berates the PU for going for help after making the original call of a SLAP?

But to answer your question regarding the preferred mechanic in this situation...

Under Going for Help from the NCAA Manual...
......"Going for help on a slap or bunt on strike two is a very specific situation. The plate umpire is not required by rule to go for help when asked as in the case of a checked swing. The plate umpire should follow the same guidelines as in a checked swing by asking the [proper base umpire] if it was a bunt or slap attempt. The response from the base umpire is the same as in the checked swing."

I think that some of the other forum members who work NCAA would tell you that this mechanic is something we would cover in our pre-game. Specifically, might the PU have a two strike slap/bunt sitch where he would go directly to the BU for help (if needed) without being asked by the DC.

[hit4power]

Thanks, obviously, I meant OC not DC in my original post. Appreciate the response

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by hit4power

I'm not an ump but interested in learning and value the input of the experts on the board.

Happened last week in Clermont....R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B. B3 is a lefty slapper who takes the normal run up on the first three pitches without offering or swinging. Count is 1 and 2. On the next pitch she bunts or slaps the pitch foul. PU rings her up for a foul bunt and DC comes out to argue. PU says he didn't see any wrist break so no swing, hence bunt. After more arguing PU confers with BU and then affirms the original call of foul bunt - out. DC then berates PU for going to his partner after making the call rather than before making the call.

So what's the preferred mechanic in this situation? Should PU have gone to BU to see if he saw bunt vs. slap before making the call?

The general policy, not necessarily NCAA, is to make the call, then ask for help if you think it is needed.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

I think that some of the other forum members who work NCAA would tell you that this mechanic is something we would cover in our pre-game. Specifically, might the PU have a two strike slap/bunt sitch where he would go directly to the BU for help (if needed) without being asked by the DC.

Is that pre-gaming a deviation?

Isn't that implying we should pre-game any possible case where we would ask for help?

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The general policy, not necessarily NCAA, is to make the call, then ask for help if you think it is needed.

I don't think that is a general policy, at least not one I have seen in print.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

I don't think that is a general policy, at least not one I have seen in print.

And I've been told otherwise in clinics. I don't understand why.

In baseball, when a base umpire isn't sure of the pulled foot/swipe tag at first base, the practice is to go to the partner first for help, and then make the call after the partner gives his/her input. That's not the case in softball as I've learned. We are to make the call we believe we see, and then go for help if asked. I never understood why the difference.

So, are you saying we should ask for help before making a call?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Manny A

And I've been told otherwise in clinics. I don't understand why.

In baseball, when a base umpire isn't sure of the pulled foot/swipe tag at first base, the practice is to go to the partner first for help, and then make the call after the partner gives his/her input. That's not the case in softball as I've learned. We are to make the call we believe we see, and then go for help if asked. I never understood why the difference.

So, are you saying we should ask for help before making a call?

I was also taught as a softball umpire when I started to go for help if needed prior to making the call.

I have since been told the opposite....Too many things can happen if you go for help first.

What if the play happens at first and before you (BU) make a call, you go to your partner and....

...Your partner has already moved to third for a potential play?
...Your partner was watching the runner on second and F6 collide?
...Your partner just went brain dead and wasn't even looking at first base?
...Your partner is a rookie that still isn't sure of their responsibilities on a play like this?

etc....etc....etc.

It's your call at the base. Make it using all the information you have available. Go for help if needed.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

I was also taught as a softball umpire when I started to go for help if needed prior to making the call.

I have since been told the opposite....Too many things can happen if you go for help first.

What if the play happens at first and before you (BU) make a call, you go to your partner and....

...Your partner has already moved to third for a potential play?
...Your partner was watching the runner on second and F6 collide?
...Your partner just went brain dead and wasn't even looking at first base?
...Your partner is a rookie that still isn't sure of their responsibilities on a play like this?

etc....etc....etc.

It's your call at the base. Make it using all the information you have available. Go for help if needed.

Yeah, Andy. A convert!!

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Andy

I was also taught as a softball umpire when I started to go for help if needed prior to making the call.

I have since been told the opposite....Too many things can happen if you go for help first.

Yeah, you might get it right in the first place.

Another example of paranoid "what if" softball umpires.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Yeah, you might get it right in the first place.

Another example of paranoid "what if" softball umpires.

Absolutely correct.

What if Umpire: Okay, here comes the throw. POP! Yep, beat him by 5 strides....but did the first baseman pull the foot just a bit early....hmmmm......what if the foot was pulled early......wow, I don't want to get this wrong......I know, I'll go to my partner to make sure I got this one right.....(looking up)...er, where is he?.......shouldn't he be trailing the batter-runner.......what's he doing up the third base line?..... there probably wasn't.....WAIT! where's the ball?......oh, the runner on first base must've kept running.....what am I going to do with this player and coach screaming at me for a call?.......

Yep, I want to be on that crew.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Is that pre-gaming a deviation?

Isn't that implying we should pre-game any possible case where we would ask for help?

Answer to question #1-NO.
For two reasons, first, it's not a deviation as the SUP Manual instructs the PU to do that very thing. Second, check swings and bunt/slap sitchs procedures are its own topic on the pre-game checklist. Pre-game is the time to review the sitch and make sure the crew is all on the same page with this sitch in terms of responsibilities.
As the Manual points out, "going for help on a slap or bunt attempt on strike two with the ball going foul is a very specific situation."

Answer to question #2-As a separate topic from check swings and slap/bunts...YES.
Going for help-how, when, when required is its own topic on the pre-game checklist.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Absolutely correct.

What if Umpire: Okay, here comes the throw. POP! Yep, beat him by 5 strides....but did the first baseman pull the foot just a bit early....hmmmm......what if the foot was pulled early......wow, I don't want to get this wrong......I know, I'll go to my partner to make sure I got this one right.....(looking up)...er, where is he?.......shouldn't he be trailing the batter-runner.......what's he doing up the third base line?..... there probably wasn't.....WAIT! where's the ball?......oh, the runner on first base must've kept running.....what am I going to do with this player and coach screaming at me for a call?.......

Yep, I want to be on that crew.

Never once happened in the dozens of situations where this arrises and that's with umpires off all ability or the lack thereof.

Just blow the call and let the shit hit the fan and figure it out from there...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Never once happened in the dozens of situations where this arrises and that's with umpires off all ability or the lack thereof.

Just blow the call and let the shit hit the fan and figure it out from there...

So, your assumption is that every time someone doesn't go for help prior to making a call, it is blown?

[fastpitch1]

Give them your call,let them appeal if they disagree .u