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Old Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:34am
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Obstruction

R1 on 1B, no outs. Hard grounder up the middle, R1 obstructed by F3 two steps off of 1B. F6 fields the ball cleanly while touching 2B and fires to 1st.

Is the ball dead as soon as the obstructed runner is put out (before the throw to 1st)? R1 awarded 2B and BR safe at 1B? Is this the simplest (dumbest) question of the day?
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Old Thu Mar 27, 2014, 10:55am
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Ball dead immediately when obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base they would have reached absent the obstruction.
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Old Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:00am
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Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
R1 on 1B, no outs. Hard grounder up the middle, R1 obstructed by F3 two steps off of 1B. F6 fields the ball cleanly while touching 2B and fires to 1st.

Is the ball dead as soon as the obstructed runner is put out (before the throw to 1st)? R1 awarded 2B and BR safe at 1B? Is this the simplest (dumbest) question of the day?
Speaking NFHS, the ball is not dead.

8-4-3b PENALTY(a): If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called.

The bold face is mine. The way you describe it, we have a delayed dead ball. Award runner second, but batter is out at first. There are several casebook plays that use the same wording: dead ball is called when the runner is put out prior to reaching the base she would have obtained had there not been obstruction.
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Old Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:07am
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FED case play 8-4-3 Sit A. Where are you getting it is not a dead ball in 8-4-3-b Penalty A?

Last edited by RKBUmp; Thu Mar 27, 2014 at 11:10am.
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Old Thu Mar 27, 2014, 11:47am
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Originally Posted by TwoBits View Post
Speaking NFHS, the ball is not dead.

8-4-3b PENALTY(a): If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called....


Color red is mine.
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Old Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:20pm
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Ditto Dakota
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Old Thu Mar 27, 2014, 12:57pm
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Originally Posted by TwoBits View Post
Speaking NFHS, the ball is not dead.

8-4-3b PENALTY(a): If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called.

The bold face is mine. The way you describe it, we have a delayed dead ball. Award runner second, but batter is out at first. There are several casebook plays that use the same wording: dead ball is called when the runner is put out prior to reaching the base she would have obtained had there not been obstruction.
That's odd. You quote the rule and bold the part that tells you this ball IS dead, and then say it isn't.

It is. BR is not out.
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Old Thu Mar 27, 2014, 01:45pm
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
That's odd. You quote the rule and bold the part that tells you this ball IS dead, and then say it isn't.
No, look again. He bolded the part that says "had there not been obstruction".

Which is even more confusing...

TwoBits, are you saying the dead ball part of the rule doesn't apply because this runner would have been out, even without the obstruction, thus there is no "base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction"?

Are you implying this is like when a batter-runner is obstructed on the way to first base, but the batted ball is caught on the fly for an out?
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Old Thu Mar 27, 2014, 02:10pm
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Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
No, look again. He bolded the part that says "had there not been obstruction".

Which is even more confusing...

TwoBits, are you saying the dead ball part of the rule doesn't apply because this runner would have been out, even without the obstruction, thus there is no "base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction"?

Are you implying this is like when a batter-runner is obstructed on the way to first base, but the batted ball is caught on the fly for an out?
That's the way I understand his implication. What rule exactly do you use to justify your last paragraph? I'm pretty sure he could be quoting the same one ;-)
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Old Thu Mar 27, 2014, 09:39pm
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Originally Posted by youngump View Post
What rule exactly do you use to justify your last paragraph?
It's not straight from the rule book. It's an interpretation supported by case play.
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Old Fri Mar 28, 2014, 07:49am
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Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
No, look again. He bolded the part that says "had there not been obstruction".

Which is even more confusing...

TwoBits, are you saying the dead ball part of the rule doesn't apply because this runner would have been out, even without the obstruction, thus there is no "base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction"?

Are you implying this is like when a batter-runner is obstructed on the way to first base, but the batted ball is caught on the fly for an out?
Using that argument, you wouldn't kill play after a runner is caught in a rundown, is obstructed during that rundown, and then is subsequently tagged out in the rundown. More than likely, she wouldn't have achieved either base safely had there been no obstruction, but we still kill play when the tag is made and award the runner her base.

I think what prevails here is the sentence in the Penalty section of FED 8-4-3b, "An obstructed runner may not be called out between the two bases where she was obstructed." And the list of Exceptions to this premise does not include, "When a runner is a dead duck anyway and the obstruction had no bearing on her status."

So in the OP, R1 is not going to be out on the play at second base, even though she was a dead duck. And if she's not going to be out by rule, it makes no sense to allow play to continue under a delayed dead ball because the defense did tag the base she was supposed to reach.

BTW, on the batter-runner being obstructed on her way to first base on a caught fly ball, that is one of the listed Exceptions (#6) under the Penalty section of 8-4-3b.
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Old Fri Mar 28, 2014, 10:49am
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I was doing a HS game and a pop-up was hit to F3. R1 was hindered by F4 on the way to 2nd.

I yelled Obstruction! F3 caught the ball and threw R1 out by 20 feet.

I killed the play and awarded R1 2nd base. The OHC came out and wanted the batter safe on 1st and the catch nullified. I ruled the batter out on the catch.

The DHC cam out and wanted R1 out because R1 would not have made 2nd anyway. I reminded the DHC that this as HS and told him that "no runner may be put out if obstructed between bases but is protected to the base she is running to".
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Old Fri Mar 28, 2014, 10:57am
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If a runner is obstructed returning to a base left too soon, she is not protected back to that base if, in the umpire's judgement, she wouldn't have made it back without the obstruction. She is not automatically protected "between the two bases".

Edit: Charlie, is my interp (above) not applicable in Fed?

Last edited by jmkupka; Fri Mar 28, 2014 at 11:01am.
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Old Fri Mar 28, 2014, 10:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliej47 View Post
I was doing a HS game and a pop-up was hit to F3. R1 was hindered by F4 on the way to 2nd.

I yelled Obstruction! F3 caught the ball and threw R1 out by 20 feet.

I killed the play and awarded R1 2nd base. The OHC came out and wanted the batter safe on 1st and the catch nullified. I ruled the batter out on the catch.

...
Did 8-4-3b Pen A) exception 2 figure into your decision?
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Old Fri Mar 28, 2014, 11:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob View Post
Did 8-4-3b Pen A) exception 2 figure into your decision?
When I nullified the out at 2nd base, and awarded the base, the runner did not go back and touch 1st.

I waited for an appeal, but no one said anything.

My partner and I talked about it after the game and he thought that I should have placed the runner back on 1st. I thought I was right.
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