Obstruction

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Speaking NFHS, the ball is not dead.

8-4-3b PENALTY(a): If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called.

The bold face is mine. The way you describe it, we have a delayed dead ball. Award runner second, but batter is out at first. There are several casebook plays that use the same wording: dead ball is called when the runner is put out prior to reaching the base she would have obtained had there not been obstruction.

That's odd. You quote the rule and bold the part that tells you this ball IS dead, and then say it isn't.

It is. BR is not out.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

That's odd. You quote the rule and bold the part that tells you this ball IS dead, and then say it isn't.

No, look again. He bolded the part that says "had there not been obstruction".

Which is even more confusing...

TwoBits, are you saying the dead ball part of the rule doesn't apply because this runner would have been out, even without the obstruction, thus there is no "base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction"?

Are you implying this is like when a batter-runner is obstructed on the way to first base, but the batted ball is caught on the fly for an out?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BretMan

No, look again. He bolded the part that says "had there not been obstruction".

Which is even more confusing...

TwoBits, are you saying the dead ball part of the rule doesn't apply because this runner would have been out, even without the obstruction, thus there is no "base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction"?

Are you implying this is like when a batter-runner is obstructed on the way to first base, but the batted ball is caught on the fly for an out?

That's the way I understand his implication. What rule exactly do you use to justify your last paragraph? I'm pretty sure he could be quoting the same one ;-)

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by youngump

What rule exactly do you use to justify your last paragraph?

It's not straight from the rule book. It's an interpretation supported by case play.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by BretMan

No, look again. He bolded the part that says "had there not been obstruction".

Which is even more confusing...

TwoBits, are you saying the dead ball part of the rule doesn't apply because this runner would have been out, even without the obstruction, thus there is no "base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction"?

Are you implying this is like when a batter-runner is obstructed on the way to first base, but the batted ball is caught on the fly for an out?

Using that argument, you wouldn't kill play after a runner is caught in a rundown, is obstructed during that rundown, and then is subsequently tagged out in the rundown. More than likely, she wouldn't have achieved either base safely had there been no obstruction, but we still kill play when the tag is made and award the runner her base.

I think what prevails here is the sentence in the Penalty section of FED 8-4-3b, "An obstructed runner may not be called out between the two bases where she was obstructed." And the list of Exceptions to this premise does not include, "When a runner is a dead duck anyway and the obstruction had no bearing on her status."

So in the OP, R1 is not going to be out on the play at second base, even though she was a dead duck. And if she's not going to be out by rule, it makes no sense to allow play to continue under a delayed dead ball because the defense did tag the base she was supposed to reach.

BTW, on the batter-runner being obstructed on her way to first base on a caught fly ball, that is one of the listed Exceptions (#6) under the Penalty section of 8-4-3b.

[charliej47]

I was doing a HS game and a pop-up was hit to F3. R1 was hindered by F4 on the way to 2nd.

I yelled Obstruction! F3 caught the ball and threw R1 out by 20 feet.

I killed the play and awarded R1 2nd base. The OHC came out and wanted the batter safe on 1st and the catch nullified. I ruled the batter out on the catch.

The DHC cam out and wanted R1 out because R1 would not have made 2nd anyway. I reminded the DHC that this as HS and told him that "no runner may be put out if obstructed between bases but is protected to the base she is running to".

[jmkupka]

If a runner is obstructed returning to a base left too soon, she is not protected back to that base if, in the umpire's judgement, she wouldn't have made it back without the obstruction. She is not automatically protected "between the two bases".

Edit: Charlie, is my interp (above) not applicable in Fed?

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by charliej47

I was doing a HS game and a pop-up was hit to F3. R1 was hindered by F4 on the way to 2nd.

I yelled Obstruction! F3 caught the ball and threw R1 out by 20 feet.

I killed the play and awarded R1 2nd base. The OHC came out and wanted the batter safe on 1st and the catch nullified. I ruled the batter out on the catch.

...

Did 8-4-3b Pen A) exception 2 figure into your decision?

[charliej47]

Originally Posted by Crabby_Bob

Did 8-4-3b Pen A) exception 2 figure into your decision?

When I nullified the out at 2nd base, and awarded the base, the runner did not go back and touch 1st.

I waited for an appeal, but no one said anything.

My partner and I talked about it after the game and he thought that I should have placed the runner back on 1st. I thought I was right.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by charliej47

The DHC cam out and wanted R1 out because R1 would not have made 2nd anyway. I reminded the DHC that this as HS and told him that "no runner may be put out if obstructed between bases but is protected to the base she is running to".

I suggest you reread that part of the rule. My book says no such thing.

Originally Posted by charliej47

When I nullified the out at 2nd base, and awarded the base, the runner did not go back and touch 1st.

I waited for an appeal, but no one said anything.

My partner and I talked about it after the game and he thought that I should have placed the runner back on 1st. I thought I was right.

I agree with your partner. Assuming you believe there needed to be an obstruction award (see below), she is awarded the base the umpire judges she would have reached had there been no obstruction. No way is that second base on this play; clearly she needed to return to first base before advancing to second.

Originally Posted by jmkupka

If a runner is obstructed returning to a base left too soon, she is not protected back to that base if, in the umpire's judgement, she wouldn't have made it back without the obstruction. She is not automatically protected "between the two bases".

Edit: Charlie, is my interp (above) not applicable in Fed?

a) What you state is not applicable in NFHS. In fact, 8-4-3-b exception 2 specifically states protection if returning, period.

b) The point here is that this play says R1 was obstructed heading away (to 2nd)!! That actually HELPED R1, in that she was not as far from 1st base as she would have been if not obstructed. And the exception 2 does not state protection applied if obstructed headed away; only if returning.

c) So, unless this play was misstated, it appears to me the exception 2 makes R1 out on the live ball appeal they made.

Originally Posted by charliej47

F3 caught the ball and threw R1 out by 20 feet

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by charliej47

I was doing a HS game and a pop-up was hit to F3. R1 was hindered by F4 on the way to 2nd.

You need to stop doing JV...