CR for DP/Flex

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the coach shows the FLEX as the pitcher on the lineup card he/she turns in to the PU, I didn't think the coach could then announce a substitution of that pitcher (either by the DP or another player). The rule requires that in the top of the first inning, the pitcher listed in the lineup has to pitch to one batter.

So even if he/she tried to make that change during the conference, the PU should say, "Sorry, coach, but you can't do that."

During the conference you can do it.
After reviewing the line up cards and they become official you then should be asking the coach if they have any changes (usually dropping the Flex who is listed as the pitcher) at this point if the change affects either the Catcher or Pitcher note who the new one is. This is all done before the start of the game which means the player listed as such to start the top of the 1st inning is the only ones allowed a CR.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

During the conference you can do it.
After reviewing the line up cards and they become official you then should be asking the coach if they have any changes (usually dropping the Flex who is listed as the pitcher) at this point if the change affects either the Catcher or Pitcher note who the new one is. This is all done before the start of the game which means the player listed as such to start the top of the 1st inning is the only ones allowed a CR.

I guess I stand corrected then. But that's still not how I read the rule:

8-9-2: In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; both must face at least the first batter on defense (one pitch).

If Patsy and Cassie is listed as the pitcher and catcher on the official lineup that I accept from the coach at the plate conference, and I say, "These lineups are now official; any changes from this point forward are to be treated as substitutions. Do you have any substitutions that you would like to make at this time?" I always believed the coach can make substitutions for any player except Patsy and Cassie. Of course, the change could be made if either one of them became ill or injured; otherwise, Patsy and Cassie had to pitch and catch for one batter, by rule.

I also don't agree that just because the game hasn't started, those changes are allowed, but once the game starts, they no longer are allowed. There's nothing that I'm aware of that says substitutions at the plate conference are different than substitutions when play has commenced.

So, at what point can the visitors' starting pitcher on the lineup card for be substituted for, despite what 8-9-2 says? Only at the plate conference? After the conference but before coach retreats to the dugout? Right before I call "Play"?

[Andy]

NFHS Rule 8, Section 9 is titled COURTESY RUNNER.

The interpretation that I have been given is that all rules in that section are specific to the situation of a courtesy runner, including article 2.

The requirement for the visiting pitcher and catcher to face one batter in the bottom of the first inning only applies IF one of those players reaches base in the top of the first and a courtesy runner is used. If that was a blanket requirement, it would be mentioned in another part of the rules as well.

So...based on that interp and given the OP, once the DP got on base in the top of the first and the coach requested a courtesy runner, the umpire would be correct in denying the request. If the coach then said, my DP will play defense for my FLEX and be the pitcher, a courtesy runner would be allowed at that time.

[Manny A]

Ok, I am wrong. I found case plays under FED rule 3-3 where the coach may substitute for the starting F1.

[CecilOne]

Did we just set a record for the fastest 12 replies?
How about the fastest 18?

[jmkupka]

Originally Posted by Andy

NFHS Rule 8, Section 9 is titled COURTESY RUNNER.

The interpretation that I have been given is that all rules in that section are specific to the situation of a courtesy runner, including article 2.

The requirement for the visiting pitcher and catcher to face one batter in the bottom of the first inning only applies IF one of those players reaches base in the top of the first and a courtesy runner is used. If that was a blanket requirement, it would be mentioned in another part of the rules as well.

So...based on that interp and given the OP, once the DP got on base in the top of the first and the coach requested a courtesy runner, the umpire would be correct in denying the request. If the coach then said, my DP will play defense for my FLEX and be the pitcher, a courtesy runner would be allowed at that time.

I guess this is the core of my OP... do all concur?

[Tru_in_Blu]

Heck no! She wasn't the pitcher when she got on base. It's that simple.

[LIUmp]

The only players who can have a CR are the ones who last played F1 or F2 on defense, OR the ones who are listed in the lineup as F1 or F2 in the top of the first. If they didn't pitch or catch last, they get NO CR. It has NOTHING to do with what WILL happen when his team comes back on defense in the next half inning. It's about who played it last. And in certain rule sets, a CR runs for the POSITION, not for the PLAYER.

In your case, jmkupka, "No can do coach."

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Heck no! She wasn't the pitcher when she got on base. It's that simple.

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

[EsqUmp]

Umpire: Visiting Coach, your line-up is official. Do you have any changes?

Coach: Yes, I'm dropping the Flex who was my pitcher. My player listed as the DP will now play offense and defense. She is my pitcher now.


Discussion...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Umpire: Visiting Coach, your line-up is official. Do you have any changes?

Coach: Yes, I'm dropping the Flex who was my pitcher. My player listed as the DP will now play offense and defense. She is my pitcher now.


Discussion...

what is there to discuss, the DP is now the pitcher on the line-up card and is afforded a CR.

BTW AFA the thread goes, in ASA, I can find no indication that any player is ever required to pitch in any circumstance.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

what is there to discuss, the DP is now the pitcher on the line-up card and is afforded a CR.

BTW AFA the thread goes, in ASA, I can find no indication that any player is ever required to pitch in any circumstance.

Agree...and the reason that it's important for all us to be more diligent in clarifying the rule set we're referencing when we're posting. It makes it confusing in trying to determine the correct ruling for the sitch in the OP.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

what is there to discuss, the DP is now the pitcher on the line-up card and is afforded a CR.

BTW AFA the thread goes, in ASA, I can find no indication that any player is ever required to pitch in any circumstance.

That was a question on the ASA test this year. I spent a half hour in the book trying to prove/dis-prove it. Found no reference. For NFHS, yes, but not ASA.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

That was a question on the ASA test this year. I spent a half hour in the book trying to prove/dis-prove it. Found no reference. For NFHS, yes, but not ASA.

ASA has no such requirement it is a myth.