DH vs DP/Flex

UMP 64 · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 25, 2006, 04:13pm

Is a DH still available to HS (FP) softball teams?

AtlUmpSteve · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 25, 2006, 05:01pm

The actual term (DH) is not. But, you can use your DP in the identical role that the DH served; one person who plays offense only for a person who plays defense only (FLEX). In that case, the only change is that you list the DP in the batting order, and put the FLEX in the 10th position, rather than immediately under the DP.

Andy · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 25, 2006, 05:10pm

There is no provision in the NFHS rule book for a DH for Softball.

Rule 3-3-1 and 3-3-6 deal only with the DP/FLEX and the use of a DH is not listed as a state option.

I believe there was a case play in last year's (2005) book that said something like "At the pre-game meeting, the manager of team A presents a lineup that includes a DH" and the ruling was that it was illegal as the DH was not an option.

All that being said, I'm not sure that every state plays HS softball under the NFHS rule set. It may be possible that some state plays under a ruleset that allows a DH.

UMP 64 · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 26, 2006, 08:26am

I was doing a HS tournament last year, and working with an elder ump of 30 yrs. experience, and who is a member of my local assiciation. One of the coaches came to both of us, prior to the pregame conference, and asked if she could use a DH. I said the DH is no longer an option while the elder ump responded saying yes. Since he was doing the dish, the DH was used.

Skahtboi · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 26, 2006, 09:35am

Remember, experience does not always equal knowledge. I know many a so called umpire who probably hasn't opened a rule book in just as many years as they have been working as an umpire. They rely upon word of mouth to get any rule changes. If you know that you are correct in a ruling, stick to your guns.

mcrowder · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 26, 2006, 11:08am

30 years of experience?

Or 1 year of experience repeated 30 times? There is a difference.

Dakota · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 26, 2006, 12:15pm

As was stated, except for the way the lineup card is filled out, the DP can be used exactly like a DH in practice.

DP = player you would have called the DH. Put her where you want her in the lineup.

FLEX = your pitcher. Put her in the #10 spot.

Then, DP always bats and FLEX always pitches.

Just like DH.

Simple.

Answer to the coach's question is, "Yes, coach, but you have to call your DH a DP and you have to list your pitcher in the #10 spot in the order and call her the FLEX. Everything else can be done identically to the way you used to coach with a DH."

whiskers_ump · #8 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 26, 2006, 12:56pm

I know the majority of you understand Tom's definition.

However, newbies, Tom is not saying the FLEX is just for the pitcher's postion
could be any position. Just that FLEX is always listed in #10 position, normally
does not bat, but can, but only for DP.

IRISHMAFIA · #9 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 26, 2006, 01:23pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
As was stated, except for the way the lineup card is filled out, the DP can be used exactly like a DH in practice.

DP = player you would have called the DH. Put her where you want her in the lineup.

FLEX = your pitcher. Put her in the #10 spot.

Then, DP always bats and FLEX always pitches.

Just like DH.

Simple.

Answer to the coach's question is, "Yes, coach, but you have to call your DH a DP and you have to list your pitcher in the #10 spot in the order and call her the FLEX. Everything else can be done identically to the way you used to coach with a DH."

I don't ever remember a DH being permitted on defense along with the person for which they are batting, but then again, I could be thinking about the little ball.

Dakota · #10 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 26, 2006, 02:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
I don't ever remember a DH being permitted on defense along with the person for which they are batting, but then again, I could be thinking about the little ball.

Not that I know of, either, but if the coach was wanting a DH, he would just have his DP bat the entire game and sit while they are on defense. IOW, he could coach the game with a DP/FLEX exactly the same way he would have with a DH.

CecilOne · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 26, 2006, 06:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota

Quote:

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
I don't ever remember a DH being permitted on defense along with the person for which they are batting, but then again, I could be thinking about the little ball.

Not that I know of, either, but if the coach was wanting a DH, he would just have his DP bat the entire game and sit while they are on defense. IOW, he could coach the game with a DP/FLEX exactly the same way he would have with a DH.

Right, it's the other side of the coin that adds to the FLEXibility (and coaching confusion).

jritchie · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 21, 2006, 08:21am

how many times can the FLEX come in and bat or run for the DP?? example:1st inning dp bats, flex comes in to run, 2nd inning dp bats again re-enter, 3rd inning flex wants to bat...is dp done or do they get an extra re enter?

CecilOne · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 21, 2006, 08:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jritchie

how many times can the FLEX come in and bat or run for the DP?? example:1st inning dp bats, flex comes in to run, 2nd inning dp bats again re-enter, 3rd inning flex wants to bat...is dp done or do they get an extra re enter?

The FLEX player can play offense for the DP any number of times, as long as the FLEX player does not leave the game in the meantime.
In the example, the DP has left the game twice and the original DP player cannot re-enter after the second time the DP is replaced by the FLEX or anyone else.

If "3rd inning flex wants to bat" and has not been removed since the second time the FLEX replaced the DP, that is legal and in fact, the FLEX player has taken over that spot in the BO.

DaveASA/FED · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 21, 2006, 09:08am

The Flex is subject to the same substitution rules as everyone else she can only re-enter the game one time. BUT, and here is where the cheese gets binding, she has to have left the game to re-enter! There are several papers on Flex/DP, Steve has written a great expalnation of it, but the quick version and how I think of it is at the start of the game the Flex is a defensive player, the DP is an offensive player. So as long as the Flex always plays defense she/he has not left the game. Now the DP is an offensive player (for the issue of leaving the game, you can play the DP on defense for anyone but the flex without any sub reported) so as long as the DP bats and runs then they have not left the game. So in your scenerio the Flex can run for the DP(DP left game), DP can bat (DP re-enters, flex still has done nothing) Flex can then run (DP left game, that player is now on done for rest of game), Flex can then bat..... you can keep this up all day long for the DP position. BUT you have burnt your starting DP's one reentry and that player is done for the day, you can use a legal sub to put into the DP position and continue batting with the FLEX running, but the original player that started as DP is done once she re-enters once and then leaves the game again.

AtlUmpSteve · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Apr 21, 2006, 09:10am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CecilOne

The FLEX player can play offense for the DP any number of times, as long as the FLEX player does not leave the game in the meantime.
In the example, the DP has left the game twice and the original DP player cannot re-enter after the second time the DP is replaced by the FLEX or anyone else.

If "3rd inning flex wants to bat" and has not been removed since the second time the FLEX replaced the DP, that is legal and in fact, the FLEX player has taken over that spot in the BO.

In your example, CecilOne, even if the coach had foolishly reported a sub for the starting DP who has now run out of re-entries to return to 10 again (foolishly because there is no reason to return to 10 until that spot somes up again offensively, unless it is intended for the new DP to play defensively), the FLEX could still bat for the DP; but now, the sub would have left the game for the first time. As long as the FLEX continues to play defensively, the FLEX has never left the game.

When you indicate "the FLEX player has taken over that spot in the BO", let it be clear that that condition may be only temporary, since they can return to 10 anytime, and any number of times (as long as the game started with 10).