Was I a jerk?

[MD Longhorn]

Many of you know by now that I'm taking a break from umpiring our local league to coach my daughter. Being on the dark side is weird, but 3 seasons in, I'm getting more comfortable.

90% of the umpires in the league are guys I've worked with, and who know I've been in their shoes, in all but 2 cases, more than they have.

I'm outside my dugout (allowed by convention here - something I've had to force myself to do as coach), about a step toward home from the entrance, which is right at first base. We're allowed to be in front of any part of the dugout, which extends about halfway home. Anyway...

Nobody on base. Before the first batter (but after the throwdown to 2nd), umpire is talking to my 2nd baseman. She moves back 2 steps. I get her attention and move her back up.

Blue then gets my attention and tells me she's in the baseline. I say, "thanks". 1 pitch goes by and he gets my attention again (he's still in A) and tells me I have to move her - "she's too close". I say, "No, I don't." He says it again and I turn to face him and say, "I'll coach, you umpire."

Next pitch he steps toward me and tells me that if I don't move my player BACK, he's going to eject me. So, of course, I tell my player to move FORWARD a step and walk away from him about 10 steps, pretty much as far toward home as I can go.

I kind of wish he'd tossed me to be honest, but nothing came of it, and between innings I saw PU giving BU a decent talking to (it looked more like a scolding to be honest).

I know that NONE of you would ever try to position a player... but do you think "I'll coach, you umpire" crossed a line? Do you think me telling my player to do the opposite of what I was instructed to do crossed a line?

I try to treat blue better than I expect to be treated in blue... but sometimes they make it very difficult.

[chuck chopper]

Since you were obviously not getting anywhere by explaining that your player can be anywhere at the time of the pitch, I would just inform his UIC .

[Andy]

As an umpire, I try not to have these conversations with a coach by talking across the field.

I may have percieved you as a jerk becuase of this:

Blue then gets my attention and tells me she's in the baseline. I say, "thanks". 1 pitch goes by and he gets my attention again (he's still in A) and tells me I have to move her - "she's too close". I say, "No, I don't." He says it again and I turn to face him and say, "I'll coach, you umpire."

I'm assuming that this conversation happened from a distance and that both of you had to raise your voice to be heard. Might haver been better to call time and walk out to have a private converstation with umpire.

Just my thoughts....

PS...and definately make sure he is taught or presented with the correct ruling.

[shagpal]

ask for time to have a talk with that umpire.

Originally Posted by Andy

As an umpire, I try not to have these conversations with a coach by talking across the field.

I may have percieved you as a jerk becuase of this:



I'm assuming that this conversation happened from a distance and that both of you had to raise your voice to be heard. Might haver been better to call time and walk out to have a private converstation with umpire.

Just my thoughts....

PS...and definately make sure he is taught or presented with the correct ruling.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

As an umpire, I try not to have these conversations with a coach by talking across the field.

I may have percieved you as a jerk becuase of this:



I'm assuming that this conversation happened from a distance and that both of you had to raise your voice to be heard. Might haver been better to call time and walk out to have a private converstation with umpire.

Just my thoughts....

PS...and definitely make sure he is taught or presented with the correct ruling.

For the record, the distance was maybe 10 yards. The other team's first base coach overheard it as did my assistant coach, but definitely no one else. I didn't want to call time to discuss it - it wasn't my issue (well, other than when he actually went to my player and told her to back up).

I'm assuming (and hopefully this is correct), that the discussion between umpires between inning was regarding this. I know PU enough to know he would have shut down a partner who thought he should be in charge of positioning players in short order.

[Rich]

Maybe. We're all human.

As a parent of an 8-year-old watching an 8U game, I watched an "umpire" call a strike at least 15-18 inches off the plate on my daughter. Same umpire didn't have his shirt tucked in and looked like he hadn't shaved in a week. No hat.

I had to walk away - I couldn't watch it. Next step was saying something.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

For the record, the distance was maybe 10 yards. The other team's first base coach overheard it as did my assistant coach, but definitely no one else. I didn't want to call time to discuss it - it wasn't my issue (well, other than when he actually went to my player and told her to back up).

My opinion...
Yes 30' WAS too far.
Either call the time for a face to face, between the two of you discussion or let it go till another time.

I think you had a perfect right (and duty?) to let him know that your player can position herself anywhere she pleases as long as she doesn't obstruct a runner. And you might add that the obstruction does or doesn't happen until the runner actually is obstructed.

If he doesn't get it, you then make your decision to escalate it then or deal with it with his superiors later.


The "You Umpire, I'll coach" line - especially from 30 feet was not good.

[Rich]

I was at another tournament last year with some really dangerous thunderstorms surrounding the park. Rain coming down quite hard. It was surreal that they were still playing as if nothing was happening.

I finally got the attention of the umpire (the parents actually huddled in the dugouts -- had to be the biggest dugouts at a softball complex I've ever seen) and he essentially told me to shut my mouth, that he was in charge. I said something, he over-reacted and told me to leave the park. So I know how it feels to be ejected, although I've never tried directly ejecting a parent as an umpire.

Next stop - tournament director. We had words. Their schedule and staying on it was important to them. In the meantime, the kids are playing in weather I wouldn't consider playing a HS or college game in.

In the end, it was all my fault. All I had to do was take my daughter out of that situation. I was just a parent.

Fast forward a few months -- I'm now the head coach of the team. Before being accepted to coach, I was asked repeatedly about this incident. I did not apologize, rather I told them that I would've handled things differently - that as a parent, my job was to remove my daughter. I also told them that as the coach, I would refuse to play under those conditions. Period. They "hired" me anyway.

As someone who's been a fairly high level official (HS/college) in 3 sports, it's very, very difficult to deal with people who don't know and, more importantly (in many cases) don't care. My goal is to accept a lot of stuff with grace this season that I wouldn't normally accept.

And that's how I would answer Mike's original question. I would've considered moving the player and dealing with the situation after the fact. And if I was going to have any conversation with an umpire, I would try to do it face to face, not from a distance.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I know that NONE of you would ever try to position a player... but do you think "I'll coach, you umpire" crossed a line? Do you think me telling my player to do the opposite of what I was instructed to do crossed a line?

I try to treat blue better than I expect to be treated in blue... but sometimes they make it very difficult.

Aside from the distance,

Did that one line and player instruction cross the line? No.

Could/should you have said it in a less confrontational manner? Remembering this is 8U rec league, and it is an 8U rec umpire, not an ASA Qualifier. Absolutely.

As a leader in that umpiring community, there were a number of better ways to handle it. The fact that you were wearing a different hat at that moment shouldn't change that. That you ask the question means you already know that, and hope we will let you off the hook.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Well, part of the problem is that you were literally on the field having this discussion, which shouldn't occur, local convention or not. Something emanating from the dugout is one thing, coming from a coach on the field is another.

If the umpire has something to say, it should be up close and personal. Either he should have come to you or you should have requested time to go to him and have a quiet conversation there. If you are lucky, the PU will come out and join the meeting, or at least, get within earshot.

However, I might not be as diplomatic (at a higher level). If the BU is unrelenting in his unreasonable demand, ask him if you can show the player where to stand and when the umpire agrees, go place her right where YOU want her positioned and walk off the field without another word or even a look.

Is that being a jerk? Maybe, but some umpires are no better than some of the coaches that KNOW they are right and need some remedial training and be afforded the opportunity to learn how wrong they are.

I still hear from a coach who was ejected 2-3 years ago from a JO state tournament insisting the umpires were wrong when one went for help and changed a call. His argument wasn't the call, but the "fact" that once an umpire makes a call, no matter how wrong it is, it can never be corrected. His source? He knows a college coach that told him so.

He swore he would never allow his team play ASA again because the umpires don't know what they are doing. Most of the umpires belatedly thanked him for that.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

I think you had a perfect right (and duty?) to let him know that your player can position herself anywhere she pleases as long as she doesn't obstruct a runner. And you might add that the obstruction does or doesn't happen when the runner actually is obstructed.
.
.
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The "You Umpire, I'll coach" line - especially from 30 feet was not good.

+1

I, too, think you could have handled it a little better by requesting time and instructing (face-to-face, and nicely) the umpire why he was wrong, by rule. Snide remarks like that only add fuel to a smoldering fire. You put him on the defensive, and that's why he came back at you with the threat of ejection.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Remembering this is 8U rec league...

Wow!! Really?! A two-man crew on an 8U rec league game? The horror...

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Wow!! Really?! A two-man crew on an 8U rec league game? The horror...

Well, at least the waste of money! We can't even get our locals to put a two-man crew on many 18U tournament games! Too expensive, don-cha-no...

[shagpal]

how did you feel?

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

For the record, the distance was maybe 10 yards. The other team's first base coach overheard it as did my assistant coach, but definitely no one else. I didn't want to call time to discuss it - it wasn't my issue (well, other than when he actually went to my player and told her to back up).

I'm assuming (and hopefully this is correct), that the discussion between umpires between inning was regarding this. I know PU enough to know he would have shut down a partner who thought he should be in charge of positioning players in short order.

[MD Longhorn]

First - thanks all for the input... that's why I asked. I appreciate it.

A couple of things in response (and no, I don't want to be that guy who posts asking for advice and opinions and then argues with those opinions!!!):

First - this is 11U, not 8U. Not sure why the assumption was made that it was 8U.

Second - a couple of you mentioned that I should have called time to go argue the point. I find this odd. As an umpire, if I make some offhand comment from a medium distance to a coach, and he then calls time to come confront me about it, I see that as a problem. So as a coach, I don't think I should do that. If I, as an umpire, make a comment to a coach from a distance and he replies in a way I don't like, or I feel I need to make my point closer up or at more length - it's MY job to call time and go discuss it with the coach.

And, attached to that - if I, as umpire, am telling the coach something about a rule, and he calls time to come out of the dugout (area) to tell me I don't know the rules, I'm going to have issue with that as well. So ... as coach ... while my experience may tell me that an umpire doesn't know the rules, I'm sure not going to be the guy to call time and come out and tell him ... at least until some ruling of his needs to be protested (like... given the OP, had he actually ruled OBS because of my player's position, it would have been necessary for me to call time and address it).

So, with that said, I find it odd that my umpire brethren would have expected a coach in this situation to call time to address them - when to me the situation is reversed.

But thanks for the feedback. Probably shouldn't have said, "I'll coach, you umpire". Honestly, I probably should have ignored him and walked away unless he called time to discuss it with me - at which point I'd be making sure his partner joined us if possible.