Was I a jerk?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

As an umpire, I try not to have these conversations with a coach by talking across the field.

I may have percieved you as a jerk becuase of this:



I'm assuming that this conversation happened from a distance and that both of you had to raise your voice to be heard. Might haver been better to call time and walk out to have a private converstation with umpire.

Just my thoughts....

PS...and definitely make sure he is taught or presented with the correct ruling.

For the record, the distance was maybe 10 yards. The other team's first base coach overheard it as did my assistant coach, but definitely no one else. I didn't want to call time to discuss it - it wasn't my issue (well, other than when he actually went to my player and told her to back up).

I'm assuming (and hopefully this is correct), that the discussion between umpires between inning was regarding this. I know PU enough to know he would have shut down a partner who thought he should be in charge of positioning players in short order.

[Rich]

Maybe. We're all human.

As a parent of an 8-year-old watching an 8U game, I watched an "umpire" call a strike at least 15-18 inches off the plate on my daughter. Same umpire didn't have his shirt tucked in and looked like he hadn't shaved in a week. No hat.

I had to walk away - I couldn't watch it. Next step was saying something.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

For the record, the distance was maybe 10 yards. The other team's first base coach overheard it as did my assistant coach, but definitely no one else. I didn't want to call time to discuss it - it wasn't my issue (well, other than when he actually went to my player and told her to back up).

My opinion...
Yes 30' WAS too far.
Either call the time for a face to face, between the two of you discussion or let it go till another time.

I think you had a perfect right (and duty?) to let him know that your player can position herself anywhere she pleases as long as she doesn't obstruct a runner. And you might add that the obstruction does or doesn't happen until the runner actually is obstructed.

If he doesn't get it, you then make your decision to escalate it then or deal with it with his superiors later.


The "You Umpire, I'll coach" line - especially from 30 feet was not good.

[Rich]

I was at another tournament last year with some really dangerous thunderstorms surrounding the park. Rain coming down quite hard. It was surreal that they were still playing as if nothing was happening.

I finally got the attention of the umpire (the parents actually huddled in the dugouts -- had to be the biggest dugouts at a softball complex I've ever seen) and he essentially told me to shut my mouth, that he was in charge. I said something, he over-reacted and told me to leave the park. So I know how it feels to be ejected, although I've never tried directly ejecting a parent as an umpire.

Next stop - tournament director. We had words. Their schedule and staying on it was important to them. In the meantime, the kids are playing in weather I wouldn't consider playing a HS or college game in.

In the end, it was all my fault. All I had to do was take my daughter out of that situation. I was just a parent.

Fast forward a few months -- I'm now the head coach of the team. Before being accepted to coach, I was asked repeatedly about this incident. I did not apologize, rather I told them that I would've handled things differently - that as a parent, my job was to remove my daughter. I also told them that as the coach, I would refuse to play under those conditions. Period. They "hired" me anyway.

As someone who's been a fairly high level official (HS/college) in 3 sports, it's very, very difficult to deal with people who don't know and, more importantly (in many cases) don't care. My goal is to accept a lot of stuff with grace this season that I wouldn't normally accept.

And that's how I would answer Mike's original question. I would've considered moving the player and dealing with the situation after the fact. And if I was going to have any conversation with an umpire, I would try to do it face to face, not from a distance.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

I think you had a perfect right (and duty?) to let him know that your player can position herself anywhere she pleases as long as she doesn't obstruct a runner. And you might add that the obstruction does or doesn't happen when the runner actually is obstructed.
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.
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The "You Umpire, I'll coach" line - especially from 30 feet was not good.

+1

I, too, think you could have handled it a little better by requesting time and instructing (face-to-face, and nicely) the umpire why he was wrong, by rule. Snide remarks like that only add fuel to a smoldering fire. You put him on the defensive, and that's why he came back at you with the threat of ejection.

[shagpal]

how did you feel?

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

For the record, the distance was maybe 10 yards. The other team's first base coach overheard it as did my assistant coach, but definitely no one else. I didn't want to call time to discuss it - it wasn't my issue (well, other than when he actually went to my player and told her to back up).

I'm assuming (and hopefully this is correct), that the discussion between umpires between inning was regarding this. I know PU enough to know he would have shut down a partner who thought he should be in charge of positioning players in short order.

[MD Longhorn]

First - thanks all for the input... that's why I asked. I appreciate it.

A couple of things in response (and no, I don't want to be that guy who posts asking for advice and opinions and then argues with those opinions!!!):

First - this is 11U, not 8U. Not sure why the assumption was made that it was 8U.

Second - a couple of you mentioned that I should have called time to go argue the point. I find this odd. As an umpire, if I make some offhand comment from a medium distance to a coach, and he then calls time to come confront me about it, I see that as a problem. So as a coach, I don't think I should do that. If I, as an umpire, make a comment to a coach from a distance and he replies in a way I don't like, or I feel I need to make my point closer up or at more length - it's MY job to call time and go discuss it with the coach.

And, attached to that - if I, as umpire, am telling the coach something about a rule, and he calls time to come out of the dugout (area) to tell me I don't know the rules, I'm going to have issue with that as well. So ... as coach ... while my experience may tell me that an umpire doesn't know the rules, I'm sure not going to be the guy to call time and come out and tell him ... at least until some ruling of his needs to be protested (like... given the OP, had he actually ruled OBS because of my player's position, it would have been necessary for me to call time and address it).

So, with that said, I find it odd that my umpire brethren would have expected a coach in this situation to call time to address them - when to me the situation is reversed.

But thanks for the feedback. Probably shouldn't have said, "I'll coach, you umpire". Honestly, I probably should have ignored him and walked away unless he called time to discuss it with me - at which point I'd be making sure his partner joined us if possible.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

A couple of you mentioned that I should have called time to go argue the point. I find this odd. As an umpire, if I make some offhand comment from a medium distance to a coach, and he then calls time to come confront me about it, I see that as a problem. So as a coach, I don't think I should do that.

As an umpire, I don't have a problem with a coach requesting time to ask me to clarify a rule for him. That's different than "arguing the point" with the umpire or "confronting" the umpire.

I think that as a coach you should be able to handle this with the same cool-headed approach we're expected to use as umpires when dealing with coaches. Request time, wait until it's granted, calmly ask for clarification, state your case, then if all you have left to hang your hat on is a protest, file the protest.

Maybe you don't want to be the guy that files a protest in an 11U rec league game, but if it really concerns you that the rule be enforced correctly, it's a better route to take than being the guy that smarts off to the umpires!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BretMan

As an umpire, I don't have a problem with a coach requesting time to ask me to clarify a rule for him. That's different than "arguing the point" with the umpire or "confronting" the umpire.

I think that as a coach you should be able to handle this with the same cool-headed approach we're expected to use as umpires when dealing with coaches. Request time, wait until it's granted, calmly ask for clarification, state your case, then if all you have left to hang your hat on is a protest, file the protest.

Maybe you don't want to be the guy that files a protest in an 11U rec league game, but if it really concerns you that the rule be enforced correctly, it's a better route to take than being the guy that smarts off to the umpires!

A fair point.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Second - a couple of you mentioned that I should have called time to go argue the point.

Well, I'm not sure if I'm one of those "couple", but I never said anything about arguing. I suggested advising him what you know the rule to be, and why there is no problem with where your fielder is positioned, rather than retort with your comment. If he then had a problem with it, go ahead and lodge the protest, and BretMan suggested.