Can't find a case play

[shagpal]

Download the NCAA rulebook for free from SUP website. It is in PDF form so you can search it too. Link is on left side of the page.

http://sup.arbitersports.com

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

YU has posted the NFHS rule... a clear case where their rule makes a lot more sense than the ASA rule, which seems to indicate there's no grey area between an illegal pitch and ruling the batter did it intentionally (with warning and ejection threats).

In NFHS (and every baseball ruleset), if the batter steps out and the pitcher stops, it's a no pitch. I believe that is the same in NCAA although my book was borrowed this weekend and I have not gotten it back.

[CecilOne]

I never post other sports here, and usually ignore any that appear, but just think this is too ironic in timing.

"PHILADELPHIA -- Phillies left-hander Jake Diekman got called for an unusual balk in the eighth inning of Monday's 5-4 win over the Rockies at Citizens Bank Park.

Diekman was working out of the stretch with runners on first and second when Nolan Arenado wanted to call time, and made a movement out of the batter's box, although he never completely left the box and time had never been called. Diekman began his delivery to the plate, but upon seeing Arenado move out of the box he believed time had been called and stopped his delivery. Home-plate umpire Jim Joyce called a balk.

Phillies interim manager Ryne Sandberg and Joyce had three conversations about the call during the game. Sandberg's contention was that a hitter cannot induce a balk. Rule 6.02(b) states: "If after the pitcher starts his windup or comes to a "set position" with a runner on, he does not go through with his pitch because the batter has stepped out of the box, it shall not be called a balk."

Joyce spoke about the call following the game with Randy Marsh, who is Major League Baseball's director of umpires. Marsh is in town this week.

"I implemented the balk wrong," Joyce said before Tuesday's game. "The rule actually states if the batter leaves the batter's box and causes the pitcher to hesitate or stop, a balk shall not be called. I got probably a little more technical on that. He didn't leave the box, but the spirit of the rule is if you make the pitcher stop by some sort of action by the batter, a balk shall not be called. I probably was a little overzealous in throwing out that balk."

Joyce said he spoke with Sandberg and Rockies manager Walt Weiss about it before Tuesday's game.

"You could have the hitter step out, and if the pitcher delivers a weaker pitch they could step back in and whack it, if they're just trying to deliver a pitch," Sandberg said. "So, for me, it's a total disadvantage for the pitcher there in all regards to the play. The rule states that, and I think that's why the rule is what it is."

In Tuesday's 5-3 loss to the Rockies, two more balks were called, but both were against Colorado reliever Rex Brothers, who didn't come to a complete stop in his delivery from the stretch in the same at-bat in the eighth inning.
"

Sandberg seeks clarification on balk call | phillies.com: News

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

YU has posted the NFHS rule... a clear case where their rule makes a lot more sense than the ASA rule, which seems to indicate there's no grey area between an illegal pitch and ruling the batter did it intentionally (with warning and ejection threats).

I don't think it makes more sense for reasons I've already posted, but it is definitely clearer and YU did point out the "strike" ruling which I overlooked.

BTW, at what point do you determine the batter left the box for this rule to be in effect?

In NFHS (and every baseball ruleset), if the batter steps out and the pitcher stops, it's a no pitch. I believe that is the same in NCAA although my book was borrowed this weekend and I have not gotten it back.

And my question is still, why? Pitcher starts, pitcher shouldn't stop. Why are the rules protecting poor mechanics and execution? Maybe a pitcher is not having a good day or is wild? You are going to penalize the batter for bailing out early?

And while we are at it, isn't the umpire directed to not grant time after the pitcher starts his/her delivery? Well, if the umpire is to not grant a suspension of play, why is it even a consideration that someone is fooled or confused?

We constantly deal with DMC, DMR, DMF, so why is there no DMP in this situation?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I never post other sports here, and usually ignore any that appear, but just think this is too ironic in timing.

"PHILADELPHIA -- Phillies left-hander Jake Diekman got called for an unusual balk in the eighth inning of Monday's 5-4 win over the Rockies at Citizens Bank Park.

Diekman was working out of the stretch with runners on first and second when Nolan Arenado wanted to call time, and made a movement out of the batter's box, although he never completely left the box and time had never been called. Diekman began his delivery to the plate, but upon seeing Arenado move out of the box he believed time had been called and stopped his delivery. Home-plate umpire Jim Joyce called a balk.

Phillies interim manager Ryne Sandberg and Joyce had three conversations about the call during the game. Sandberg's contention was that a hitter cannot induce a balk. Rule 6.02(b) states: "If after the pitcher starts his windup or comes to a "set position" with a runner on, he does not go through with his pitch because the batter has stepped out of the box, it shall not be called a balk."

Joyce spoke about the call following the game with Randy Marsh, who is Major League Baseball's director of umpires. Marsh is in town this week.

"I implemented the balk wrong," Joyce said before Tuesday's game. "The rule actually states if the batter leaves the batter's box and causes the pitcher to hesitate or stop, a balk shall not be called. I got probably a little more technical on that. He didn't leave the box, but the spirit of the rule is if you make the pitcher stop by some sort of action by the batter, a balk shall not be called. I probably was a little overzealous in throwing out that balk."

Joyce said he spoke with Sandberg and Rockies manager Walt Weiss about it before Tuesday's game.

"You could have the hitter step out, and if the pitcher delivers a weaker pitch they could step back in and whack it, if they're just trying to deliver a pitch," Sandberg said. "So, for me, it's a total disadvantage for the pitcher there in all regards to the play. The rule states that, and I think that's why the rule is what it is."

In Tuesday's 5-3 loss to the Rockies, two more balks were called, but both were against Colorado reliever Rex Brothers, who didn't come to a complete stop in his delivery from the stretch in the same at-bat in the eighth inning.
"

Sandberg seeks clarification on balk call | phillies.com: News

Again, the batter is not required to stay in the box, even in MLB. Many batters step one foot out and then return to hit a pitch, it is not a penalty. And in softball, if the batter does leave the box, they cannot re-enter an "whack it".

As it said, the pitcher ASSUMED time had been called. How does ASSUMING anything work out in some cases on the field?

I'm not arguing the rules, I arguing the rule shouldn't be there to start.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And in softball, if the batter does leave the box, they cannot re-enter an "whack it".

Actually, only ASA defines stepping out and then back in as an illegally batted ball. Not so in NFHS or NCAA.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

As it said, the pitcher ASSUMED time had been called. How does ASSUMING anything work out in some cases on the field.

We assume that calls we make that might've put a player in jeopardy may be corrected. What if the player just had a brain cramp and never really heard our call? We are not responsible for trying to figure that out; we just give the player the benefit of the doubt here, and protect him/her.

To me, the same is true with this case play discussion. We give the pitcher the benefit of the doubt that he/she was affected by the batter's action. After all, why else would the pitcher stop his/her motion? Because he/she wanted to commit an IP?

The reason baseball pitchers are coached into continuing with their pitch delivery is to prevent injury for suddenly stopping their motion. It's not to prevent the possibility of an umpire calling a balk.

I guess I'm just surprised by your position on this. Virtually every other rule set allows for this to be a "no pitch" situation. The same should be the case in ASA, IMO.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Actually, only ASA defines stepping out and then back in as an illegally batted ball. Not so in NFHS or NCAA.

Probably because their primary game is FP where this isn't likely to happen. If I remember correctly, this rule was enacted to keep those who like running the box from leaving the back side and reentering to hit the ball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

We assume that calls we make that might've put a player in jeopardy may be corrected. What if the player just had a brain cramp and never really heard our call? We are not responsible for trying to figure that out; we just give the player the benefit of the doubt here, and protect him/her.

Ahhh...no, we don't. If the player doesn't hear a call, that is the player's problem, not the umpire's.

To me, the same is true with this case play discussion. We give the pitcher the benefit of the doubt that he/she was affected by the batter's action. After all, why else would the pitcher stop his/her motion? Because he/she wanted to commit an IP?

If an OF dives and comes up like a catch and a runner doesn't advance and is forced out even though the umpire is standing there giving a safe signal, do you protect that runner because her and the coach didn't realize the ball wasn't caught?

If R1 is on 2B and after a non-decisive pitch is caught, he starts walking toward 3B coach screaming at him while the catcher is standing there, with the ball trying to figure out what is going on. R2 then stops on 3B and starts laughing. Do you put him back because the catcher was confused?

I'm not saying it should never be called, but I like ASA's requirement that the umpire must believe the intent was to cause an issue with the pitcher. I do not believe it should be automatic just because the pitch may be confused.

The reason baseball pitchers are coached into continuing with their pitch delivery is to prevent injury for suddenly stopping their motion. It's not to prevent the possibility of an umpire calling a balk.

It isn't just baseball and it wasn't only to prevent injury. It is also because you never know if it was the umpire who said time, just like in softball, so you follow through with the play, just like a runner is told to not stop playing until an umpire or coach tells them to stop.

I guess I'm just surprised by your position on this. Virtually every other rule set allows for this to be a "no pitch" situation. The same should be the case in ASA, IMO.

My position is that it is a competitive game and some of the rules remove some of the character of a competitive game by making excuses and compensating for poor play and coaching.