Can't find a case-book play

jbduke · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 16, 2001, 05:06am

Hello, all.

I've been reading the boards here for about a year without posting, and I wanted all of you to know how much enjoyment and valuable knowledge I have gotten out of all of your Q&As, editorials, jokes, etc.

Now I have something I'd like for you to chew on with me.
Recent situation. A1 and B1 are both going after a rebound. Each is able to get a hand on the ball, but is only able to tip it into the air. Finally, with the ball still overhead, A1 pushes B1 away and secures the rebound easily.

Easy foul on A1. The play happened in front of A's bench. The coach jumps up to claim that A1 had in fact gotten his hands on the ball (presumably possessed by B1), and had "pushed," as opposed to stripping the ball (I have no idea what the coach was seeing, but I think his delusion may yet yield fruit). That was all he said. I assume his argument was that, although the transfer of A1's momentum through the ball did indeed cause B1 to be separated from the ball and fall, it was a legal act.

Would you guys have anything here? I tried to come up with similar situations, and I thought about A1 going up for a shot, and B1 coming down hard ON THE BALL, causing A1 to be disadvantaged. Clearly no call here (other than a possible tie-up), but I couldn't decided whether my original case play might fall under the 'rough tactics' clause in the NFHS foul definition.

JB
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1991, 1992, 2001, 2002?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 16, 2001, 10:30am

I think that Coach A has been watching to many NBA games and wants some sort of "loose ball" foul called on B1. But, I think that you are trying to complicate the play.

From reading you original description of the play, I would say you got the play correct. Both A1 and B1 are in equal positions to rebound the ball and then A1 pushes B1. A1's actions are a common foul. If Team B is not in the bonus, Team B gets the ball for a throw-in at a designated spot nearest the foul. If Team B is in the bonus, B1 shoots free throws.

ChuckElias · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 16, 2001, 08:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by jbduke

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1991, 1992, 2001, 2002?

Just curious, JB. What's the pattern here?

Chuck

jbduke · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 16, 2001, 11:38pm

Chuck,

National Championship years for the Duke men's basketball team.

Mark,

Sorry to sound ungrateful, but my question was more with the hypothetical than with the actual play. I felt good about my call during the game.

Let me restate the sitch. A1 is holding the ball. B1 shoves the ball, causing A1 to fall down with the ball. Would this simply be a travel, or would the 'rough tactics' provision of the foul definition warrant a foul on B1?

JB
-----------------
1991, 1992, 2001, 2002?

BktBallRef · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 16, 2001, 11:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by jbduke
National Championship years for the Duke men's basketball team.

I think I'm gonna be sick!

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 17, 2001, 12:22am

JBDuke, your original posting made said that the ball was loose in the air when A1 pushed B1.

Your second posting is different from your first and so I will restate with some observations of mine own: A1 is holding a live ball on the court. B1 puts his hands in contact with the ball, attempting to take it from A1. B1's contact with the ball is not enough to create a held ball situation and B1 never makes contact with A1. A1, then falls to the floor holding the ball.

This play can be looked at in two different ways as you stated: traveling by A1 or common foul by B1. I believe that your observation of possible rough play by B1 is a valid one. I think that it is a decision that has to be based on what your judgement tells you at the time of the play. If B1's actions are a legtimate attempt to steal or tie up the ball, then you have a traveling call. If B1's actions are of that of a bull in a china shop and not of legitimate play for the ball, then by all means call the common foul.

I think that it is a play that as soon as you see you know which way you are going to go.

mick · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 17, 2001, 06:45am

Quote:

Originally posted by jbduke
Let me restate the sitch. A1 is holding the ball. B1 shoves the ball, causing A1 to fall down with the ball. Would this simply be a travel, or would the 'rough tactics' provision of the foul definition warrant a foul on B1?

JB,
Looks like a travel from here.
B1 did not violate by shoving the ball.
I don't want to penalize strength, nor award the lack thereof.
mick

dblref · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 17, 2001, 09:41am

BktBallRef must be a Tar Heel or Wolk Pack fan. I lived in Fayettville for 6 years. My older son is a Wolf Pack fan and the younger son is a Tar Heel fan. They both take after their Mom because the only team in NC is DUKE! I am, or should say was, a big Jimmy V fan.

BktBallRef · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 17, 2001, 12:24pm

I've been a Tar Heel fan all my life.
When I was small, there were no Duke fans.
Duke sucked and nobody pulled for them.
Now, this Coach K guy has been there a while, had some success, and everybody's a fan!

Looks like a tough year for my Heels.

jbduke · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 17, 2001, 03:17pm

BktBallRef,

Just wanted to let you know I'm not a bandwagonner; went to college there.

If 91,92,01,02? makes you sick, how are you going to survive this season in one piece?

Yes, I am still in painful memory of 1994-95.

JB

BktBallRef · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 17, 2001, 03:23pm

I guess we're bound to have a bad season, once every 30 years or so.

Hawks Coach · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 17, 2001, 03:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by jbduke
BktBallRef,

Just wanted to let you know I'm not a bandwagonner; went to college there.

If 91,92,01,02? makes you sick, how are you going to survive this season in one piece?

Yes, I am still in painful memory of 1994-95.

JB

I'll survive just fine up here in Terp land after we get revenge!

dblref · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 18, 2001, 08:32am

Hawks Coach: I know you coach young ladies in the DC area, but exactly where are you located? Do you coach any AAU teams? If so, do you ever participate in the Vogues or Gym Rats tournaments? My association, Cardinal Basketball Officials Association, officiates a lot of these tournaments. Who know, I may have officiated some of your games.

Hawks Coach · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 18, 2001, 09:49am

I work with the MD Flames, get down to Mt Vernon for a Cardinal event at least once a year, we'll hit the Fairfax Holiday Tourney in two weeks (without me - I'll be skiing!), do a Vogues tourney in the spring, etc. We also plan to go north to PA and NJ, see some different competition.

dblref · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Dec 19, 2001, 07:20am

Maybe we might meet at Mt. Vernon or Vogues event. I do a lot of those games. Enjoy your skiing -- wish I could go again. I skiied a lot when I was lived in Europe (courtesy of Uncle Sam), and I really miss it. Too expensive here most of the time.