A Play I can not find in rules or case... Actually happened.

[Self]

I am hearing so many different responses to the below situation from HS officials, college officials, and rules interpreters, and I want to get the call right.

A1 scores a basket, as the ball goes through the net B1 grabs the ball and immediately passes it up court to a fastbreaking teammate. The problem is B1 has never stepped out of bounds. Both feet remained inbounds.....

The answers I have gotten are these:

1.) It is nothing, you blow your whistle and reset the throw in with B1 out of bounds. ( This seems strange since it could occur more than once and it seems there would be a procedure to handle this.)

2.) You immediately start your 5 second count since the ball is at the disposal of B1. Then you could have a 5 second count if they do not bring the ball back and throw it in correctly. ( The problem I see with this is alot can happen in that 5 second count, they could actually score quickly or a foul could be committed, it could really make the game messy.)

3.) You blow your whistle and reset the throw in for B and issue B a delay of game warning for boundary violation. ( Not sure this warning covers this.)

4.) It is a throw in violation. The ball was at B1's disposal, to make a legal throw in the player must be out of bounds, since B1 attempted a throw in it without going out of bounds it is a violation. ( The problem I am being told on this is that there is no rule or case that covers this directly and since B1 never stepped out of bounds the throw in did not begin, there for it cannot be a throw in violation.

I have looked all through the rule and case book and cannot find anything that covers this directly. Please let me know how this situation should be handled and what rule or case we use for it. ........ Thanks...

[Tim Roden]

I have used both 1 and 4 and I have also just used my voice to say "Bring it back." They do. Usually when this does happen it is some 7th gradder who doesn't think with the ball or doesn't know what he is doing. Your right, there should be a case for this.

[Mark Dexter]

I say this is a violation. The throw-in starts when the ball is at the disposal of the inbounder (4-41-3). Once the throw-in starts, you could get A1 for a few different violations:

9-2-11 Note seems strongest: "The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he/she does not touch the inbounds area before the ball is released on the throw-in pass."

9-2-5: Player shall not carry the ball onto the court.

[Mark Padgett]

At the high school level (or above) or at a middle school competitive level, I always go with your option 2. Whatever happens during the 5 seconds happens and I deal with it.

Middle school rec I usually just call them back and tell them to inbound properly, unless I have to do it repeatedly, then I warn the coach once and then use your procedure 2. I think that's the only one you can specifically justify with the rules.

[BktBallRef]

We've discussed this one every year for the past 3 years.

Option #1 - This is what I would do in a lower level game.

Option #2 - I agree. Too much can happen and I'm not going to let it happen and then have to clean it up.

Option #3 - At the varsity level this is what I would do and what I was told to do by Dick Knox. Some will argue that they have 5 seconds. Well, they have 5 seconds to inbound the ball but clearly, they have no intention of doing so. Delay of game warning works for me.

Option #4 - I'm not going there.

JMO, which is all any of us can express since it's not addressed in the books!

[Dan_ref]

There was a thread on this a while ago, maybe on the "other"
discussion board. Frankly, I don't recall what the
consensus was although I seem to remember someone getting a
NF ruling that looked like your #3...or maybe you go right
to the T without the warning. Anyway, I would blow my
whistle & bring them back for a proper throw-in, as in your
#1

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
There was a thread on this a while ago, maybe on the "other" discussion board. Frankly, I don't recall what the consensus was although I seem to remember someone getting a NF ruling that looked like your #3...or maybe you go right to the T without the warning. Anyway, I would blow my whistle & bring them back for a proper throw-in, as in your #1

#3 was the ruling that I got from Dick Knox.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

#3 was the ruling that I got from Dick Knox.

How is this a delay of game warning for a boundary violation. Boundary violations are committed by the defense.

[BktBallRef]

Mr. Knox said to issue a delay of game warning. I was not referring to the boundary portion of #3. Sorry for the confusion.

[crew]

i agree with number 3(if it is very blatant). bring it back and give a delay of game warning to that team. on rare cases does it happen again. but if it is 1 foot in 1 foot out(honest mistake) i would blow whistle immediatley and reset without any warning.

[Self]

I found this one and thought it might cover it... " The thrower shall not touch the ball in the court before it touches or is touched by another player". If he grabs the ball through the net and throws to a teammate without going out of bounds isn't this exactly what he did. touch the ball in bounds before it touches another player... A violation..

As far as what Crew said one foot in one foot out "an honest mistake". That would definitely have to be a violation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Self
I found this one and thought it might cover it... " The thrower shall not touch the ball in the court before it touches or is touched by another player". If he grabs the ball through the net and throws to a teammate without going out of bounds isn't this exactly what he did. touch the ball in bounds before it touches another player... A violation..

No. This is addressing an OOB thrower who inbounds the ball and touches it prior to an inbound player touching it.

[Self]

The rule says the thrower shall not do the following. Says nothing in that item that says OOB. Other articles refer to OOB but those cover there particular areas. Since the throw in starts when the ball is at the disposal of the player. When he attempt to throw the ball to the teammate he becomes the thrower. So he is the firsat to touch it inbounds.

The problem is nothing is addressing this particular situation in the rules or case book. We are not getting any consistant answer on how to handle this situation. It should be the same at sub-varsity as in Varsity.

I lean toward a violation, since the player is attempting an illegal throw in. I emailed Peter Webb to see if he can help clear this up.

[APHP]

Why not reset throw-in and warn team for delay of game.
Rule 10, Art. 5b.....Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made proptly live or from being put in play.

[Self]

That is not one of the 3 warnings that are covered by the rules. 10-1-5B covers delay but it is used after timeouts or for free throws. It also would result in a Technical.