courtesy runner situation

[WestMichBlue]

I'll accept the no CR ruling (reluctantly) but this - - - "The rationale is that the spirit and intent of the courtesy runner rule is for the pitcher and/or catcher to be able to rest after they have batted and reached base." - - - is B.S.!

16 yo girls do not need to rest! Pitchers and catchers are usually the best athletes on the team and most coaches do not want to take them off the base. For that reason I put a lot of emphasis in pre-games to get coaches to use the CR - especially for the catcher.

I don't know how long the CR rule has been in ASA JO, but it has been in NFHS for quite a few years - and it is definately a speed-up rule. It used to be a State option under suggested speed-up rules.

WMB

[DownTownTonyBrown]

This goes slightly contrary to my understanding. I felt the rule was so the catcher could get his gear on and thereby minimize the delay between half innings. It doesn't speed up the pitcher but it might offer some protection so the pitcher doesn't collide at a base, or slide and jam their fingers, etc.

Rest??? I hesitate at that... although these two players do carry the greatest share of the activity.

The rules as quoted by Mike do seem to spell it out rather well.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
I'll accept the no CR ruling (reluctantly) but this - - - "The rationale is that the spirit and intent of the courtesy runner rule is for the pitcher and/or catcher to be able to rest after they have batted and reached base." - - - is B.S.!

16 yo girls do not need to rest! Pitchers and catchers are usually the best athletes on the team and most coaches do not want to take them off the base. For that reason I put a lot of emphasis in pre-games to get coaches to use the CR - especially for the catcher.

I don't know how long the CR rule has been in ASA JO, but it has been in NFHS for quite a few years - and it is definately a speed-up rule. It used to be a State option under suggested speed-up rules.

WMB

Actually, HS baseball began using this rule back in the '70s, but the reasoning for it wasn't necessarily rest. I believe it was instituted for the catcher first and then for the pitcher a little while later.

The explanation I was given back then was to save their legs, particularly the knees and ankles. Now, I wasn't umpiring at that level at the time, but this is what I was told by the coaching staff.

Yeah, I know it's baseball and I hate baseball, but that is the first place I've seen a CR used and just thought I would relate what I was told.

[WestMichBlue]

It may have been around as an option for baseball that long; any rule would be welcome to speed up that game. When I coached HS Softball I didn't have a team that really beat up on the clock, but still we would finish and the girls would head for the baseball diamond to see the rest of the BB game. And often would see 2 or 3 innings. (Away games, because both teams rode the same bus.)

Whatever, it was still an option for NFHS BB and SB as recently as 2000 (and listed under the catagory of "Speed Up Rules" in the baseball book!

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
I'll accept the no CR ruling (reluctantly) ...

Why reluctantly, WMB? I agree with your position that the courtesy runner rule is intended to speed up the game (catchers). It is also intended to allow pitcher to be a bit more protected (IMO) - otherwise, what is the rationale for allowing CRs for pitchers?

If the intent is to speed up the game, how is that intent satisfied by putting in the pitcher again as a re-entry and then putting in a CR?

If the intent is to protect the pitcher, how is that intent satisifed, either? (Just keep the pitcher on the bench and re-enter her when the team goes on defense.)

So, why "reluctantly?"

[CecilOne]

Here is the official NFHS interpretation:

"SITUATION 12: The DH, who is batting for the pitcher, reaches first base. The offensive coach requests time to bring the pitcher in to pinch-run for the DH, thus eliminating the use of the DH for the remainder of the game. The coach then wants to insert a courtesy runner for the pitcher. RULING: A courtesy runner is not permitted since the DH was batting for the pitcher. (8-9-5)"

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
I don't believe this needs an "official" interpretation as it is clearly stated (at least in my mind) in the rule book.

Rule 10.E states that the courtesy runner is not permitted to run as a courtesy runner for the DP if the DP is batting for the pitcher or catcher.
... snip ...

The 2003 ASA Clinic guide basically says the same thing in simpler terms. [/B]

Yes, 8.10.E is clear in what it says, but remember, the pitcher was on base, not the DP; which is why it needed an interpretation and why NFHS issued one. Also, that might be why it is mentioned in the ASA clinic guide, which we never see, so the clinicians could clarify it. The main point of 8.10.E is that the pitcher or catcher can not have both a "designated" pinch-hitter and a "courtesy" pinch-runner, without ever appearing at the plate.
Glad you knew the right answer, anyway (big surprise ). I wonder if there will be an exception next year for injured DP's, like there is for injured CR's.

[IRISHMAFIA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CecilOne

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
I don't believe this needs an "official" interpretation as it is clearly stated (at least in my mind) in the rule book.

Rule 10.E states that the courtesy runner is not permitted to run as a courtesy runner for the DP if the DP is batting for the pitcher or catcher.
... snip ...

The 2003 ASA Clinic guide basically says the same thing in simpler terms. Yes, 8.10.E is clear in what it says, but remember, the pitcher was on base, not the DP; which is why it needed an interpretation and why NFHS issued one.

Which is why I also quoted 8.10.B which directly addresses the pitcher returning to run for the individual who safely reached base.

Also, that might be why it is mentioned in the ASA clinic guide, which we never see,

Anyone may purchase this via softball.org. It is not a classified document

so the clinicians could clarify it. The main point of 8.10.E is that the pitcher or catcher can not have both a "designated" pinch-hitter and a "courtesy" pinch-runner, without ever appearing at the plate.
Glad you knew the right answer, anyway (big surprise ). I wonder if there will be an exception next year for injured DP's, like there is for injured CR's.

Thank you

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Which is why I also quoted 8.10.B which directly addresses the pitcher returning to run for the individual who safely reached base.

A) That rule says substitute (not individual), and being literal, the DP is not a substitute.
B) It's hard to disagree with you without taking things out of context

BTW, if you get ASA to make changes, moving the CR rule out of rule 8 to the "players & subs" rule would help.

[CecilOne]

From NFHS:

In another editorial change, Rule 8-9-2 now states that the pitcher or catcher must bat and reach base legally in order to be eligible for a courtesy runner.