U3 Button-Hook

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by shagpal

You suggested if you spend the $400 for the advanced FP camp, you will be shown correctly how to button hook in 3-man. It was explained right here and you got it for free. What's missing?

You're making the ridiculous assumption that I would spend $400 to go to an advanced camp for the sole purpose of learning how to button hook in 3-man.

[EsqUmp]

Mechanics manuals are a set of compromises agreed upon by those who write and edit the manuals. Not all people seated around the table will agree upon each mechanic. As long as those who are evaluating stick with the manual and the philosophies behind the mechanics, umpires should be in good shape. A problem arises when UICs/evaluators/clinicians start to put their own unapproved twist on things based on their own preferences. I have spoken with countless umpires who return from clinics (primarily ASA or NCAA) with mechanics or techniques that not only aren't in the manual, but often contradict those that are.

As we have seen in NCAA over the last ten years or so, mechanics can become less rigid once a higher percentage of umpires are on the same page. In years past, manuals had a tendency to turn umpires into "spot umpires." Umpires would jump to a position like well-trained robots without giving thought as to why they would go there. The idea of pausing, reading the play and then reacting to the play was virtually non-existent. Though things have improved, there is certainly a long way to go. Still today, umpires will see a ball hit toward the outfield and start coming inside the diamond rather than reading the play and letting the ball take them to the play.

An example of an unnecessary button-hook (leaving alone rimming with no runners on base) is on fly balls to the outfield. Umpires drop their head, run inside and prepare to take the runner to the next base if the runner tags up. Here's the question I ask the umpires when I think they came inside needlessly: "What are the elements you are looking for on a tag-up situation?" The answer is always, "The runner." When I ask them, "What else?" they almost always say, "The base." Rarely does the umpire say, "The ball." Now, the umpire was always able to see the runner. The umpire was always able to see the base. The umpire could have seen the ball by opening up. What these overly-button-hooking umpires don't often see is the ball. How can you rule on a tag-up appeal if you don't see the ball? If you can't button-hook inside the diamond in time to see the ball as it arrives near the outfield, don't come inside. Just open up, face the ball and glance at the runners.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

An example of an unnecessary button-hook (leaving alone rimming with no runners on base) is on fly balls to the outfield. Umpires drop their head, run inside and prepare to take the runner to the next base if the runner tags up. Here's the question I ask the umpires when I think they came inside needlessly: "What are the elements you are looking for on a tag-up situation?" The answer is always, "The runner." When I ask them, "What else?" they almost always say, "The base." Rarely does the umpire say, "The ball." Now, the umpire was always able to see the runner. The umpire was always able to see the base. The umpire could have seen the ball by opening up. What these overly-button-hooking umpires don't often see is the ball. How can you rule on a tag-up appeal if you don't see the ball? If you can't button-hook inside the diamond in time to see the ball as it arrives near the outfield, don't come inside. Just open up, face the ball and glance at the runners.

Hmmm. I rarely have any problems button-hooking in on the tag-ups, and watching all the elements. But I do agree, for example, that as U1 and a runner at first only, it would be much easier to see the tag-up of R1 on a fly ball in left-center that U3 chases, if I stayed out and opened up.

The problem then, for some of us older types, is getting into position to watch the tag play at second should R1 advance. You're at a disadvantage starting from essentially foul territory.

[shagpal]

I make no assumptions, you wrote it. Perhaps in jest. Like I said, I am making NO assumptions.

But no, I don't think you would pay that much to learn just how to button hook. I sense you might not comprehend why you MUST button hook, since you didn't at first and seem natural not to do so, but was later corrected by your training UIC to do so regardless on a clean base hit. It would make more sense to spend money to learn if to button hook, or why and when it makes sense to do it.

Here is what I can assure you. If you pay $400 to goto that advanced camp, they will tell you you must button hook on a clean base it to the outfield, period and without exception. Inside outside theory, period.

Originally Posted by Manny A

You're making the ridiculous assumption that I would spend $400 to go to an advanced camp for the sole purpose of learning how to button hook in 3-man.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Hmmm. I rarely have any problems button-hooking in on the tag-ups, and watching all the elements. But I do agree, for example, that as U1 and a runner at first only, it would be much easier to see the tag-up of R1 on a fly ball in left-center that U3 chases, if I stayed out and opened up.

The problem then, for some of us older types, is getting into position to watch the tag play at second should R1 advance. You're at a disadvantage starting from essentially foul territory.

I would recommend just taking a step or two back and going deeper. This would basically be a mirror image as if you had come inside. The angle might even be better. Flash back to the runner right before the ball is going to reach the outfielder. If she's on the base at that time, you're all set. If she's off and doesn't go back, you know that there may be a legitimate appeal.

I button hooked for years and have moved away from it more and more and have outright eliminated it in the 3 umpire games I do.

[shagpal]

Manny, a WCWS extols the virtue of ball status and is ASA. I'll let you guess which one or maybe all of them. Button hooking requires you purposefully lose ball status only to regain it again prior to repositioning.

If you (U3) are rotated and U1 chases caught, you are already at 2b. Watch tagup and wait for runner to come to you, be ahead of the runner. If dropped, stay at 2b for throw into 2b, or take several steps towards 1b ending up in the rotated B position outside to call a close one at 1b. The placement of the fly will likely hint at where the throw will go. PRR, pause, read and react.

If you (U1) don't chase, take a couple of steps foul or simply open up to watch tagup at 1st.or dropped ball and the ensuing scramble. Your angle will be fine in foul to see it all. Be aware of first base coach.

If U3 chases, unless you (U1) will end up right in a throwing lane for a play at 2b, watch tag while opened up, then parallel runner into 2b while rimming outside. If you feel you will be squeezed, you can always default to pivoting inside (button hooking) since you already know how, but you will need to know ball status and prepitch your secondary calling position at 2b to determine you going inside.

PU comes inside the diamond and has a good look at the throwback to help at 1b if there is one since he will likely be trailing BR anyways if its close.

This is all PPP, pre pitch planning. Thinking umpires. No longer are we told X marks the spot where you must go.

You working 3-man which NCAA dominates. Be ahead of the runners if possible, let them come to you, and stay outa the way by button hooking as little as possible, unless you must when working ASA.

Consider that when working outside, you have far less worry about crossing running lanes to make you uncomfortable like you felt, and can concentrate more on throwing lanes, and all the while maintaining ball status to help you make those decisions.

Originally Posted by Manny A

Hmmm. I rarely have any problems button-hooking in on the tag-ups, and watching all the elements. But I do agree, for example, that as U1 and a runner at first only, it would be much easier to see the tag-up of R1 on a fly ball in left-center that U3 chases, if I stayed out and opened up.

The problem then, for some of us older types, is getting into position to watch the tag play at second should R1 advance. You're at a disadvantage starting from essentially foul territory.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by shagpal

Manny, a WCWS extols the virtue of ball status and is ASA. I'll let you guess which one or maybe all of them. Button hooking requires you purposefully lose ball status only to regain it again prior to repositioning.

If you (U3) are rotated and U1 chases caught, you are already at 2b. Watch tagup and wait for runner to come to you, be ahead of the runner. If dropped, stay at 2b for throw into 2b, or take several steps towards 1b ending up in the rotated B position outside to call a close one at 1b. The placement of the fly will likely hint at where the throw will go. PRR, pause, read and react.

If you (U1) don't chase, take a couple of steps foul or simply open up to watch tagup at 1st.or dropped ball and the ensuing scramble. Your angle will be fine in foul to see it all. Be aware of first base coach.

If U3 chases, unless you (U1) will end up right in a throwing lane for a play at 2b, watch tag while opened up, then parallel runner into 2b while rimming outside. If you feel you will be squeezed, you can always default to pivoting inside (button hooking) since you already know how, but you will need to know ball status and prepitch your secondary calling position at 2b to determine you going inside.

PU comes inside the diamond and has a good look at the throwback to help at 1b if there is one since he will likely be trailing BR anyways if its close.

This is all PPP, pre pitch planning. Thinking umpires. No longer are we told X marks the spot where you must go.

You working 3-man which NCAA dominates. Be ahead of the runners if possible, let them come to you, and stay outa the way by button hooking as little as possible, unless you must when working ASA.

Consider that when working outside, you have far less worry about crossing running lanes to make you uncomfortable like you felt, and can concentrate more on throwing lanes, and all the while maintaining ball status to help you make those decisions.

Manny, consider that all this may be decent advice in a future NCAA game.

But, considering I understand you are currently boning up on ASA 3-man for the ASA 18 Gold, ignore every part of it relative to your current need. Doing someone else's mechanics in a National is as disrespectful as wearing someone else's uniform. No matter what you believe is a "better" mechanic, or use all the catch phrases spoken by others.

[shagpal]

"Unless you must when working ASA"

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Manny, consider that all this may be decent advice in a future NCAA game.

But, considering I understand you are currently boning up on ASA 3-man for the ASA 18 Gold, ignore every part of it relative to your current need. Doing someone else's mechanics in a National is as disrespectful as wearing someone else's uniform. No matter what you believe is a "better" mechanic, or use all the catch phrases spoken by others.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I have never been, seen, heard or taken part in teaching anyone to go a spot. I don't see it anywhere in the ASA or ISF manual. Parameters, yes; Specific spot, no.

However, recently ASA have had NUS members lock on the DVD and like the mechanics at the schools and clinics, the DVDs were meant to be an aid, not the bible. Those folks are not helpful to anyone, the umpire or the UIC who has to work with that umpire.

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

An example of an unnecessary button-hook (leaving alone rimming with no runners on base) is on fly balls to the outfield. Umpires drop their head, run inside and prepare to take the runner to the next base if the runner tags up.

Again, don't know where you get this as I have never heard the suggestion of an umpire not watching the ball. Just because he is coming inside doesn't mean their head cannot turn to watch the ball.

Here's the question I ask the umpires when I think they came inside needlessly: "What are the elements you are looking for on a tag-up situation?" The answer is always, "The runner." When I ask them, "What else?" they almost always say, "The base." Rarely does the umpire say, "The ball." Now, the umpire was always able to see the runner. The umpire was always able to see the base. The umpire could have seen the ball by opening up. What these overly-button-hooking umpires don't often see is the ball. How can you rule on a tag-up appeal if you don't see the ball? If you can't button-hook inside the diamond in time to see the ball as it arrives near the outfield, don't come inside. Just open up, face the ball and glance at the runners.

IMO, staying outside provides the umpire with no better a look, just a bit less demanding. Then again, an umpire inside is in a better position to move to any number of position to make a call at any base necessary. AFA a tag up, yeah, I'm watching the ball and like being outside opening up to glance at the runner on the contact.

If the ball is on the ground, I don't care where the ball is until a fielder retrieves and returns it to the infield. That leaves me free to stay with the runners and defenders in the area with minimal effort.

Originally Posted by shagpal

Manny, a WCWS extols the virtue of ball status and is ASA. I'll let you guess which one or maybe all of them. Button hooking requires you purposefully lose ball status only to regain it again prior to repositioning.

No it doesn't.

If you (U3) are rotated and U1 chases caught, you are already at 2b. Watch tagup and wait for runner to come to you, be ahead of the runner. If dropped, stay at 2b for throw into 2b, or take several steps towards 1b ending up in the rotated B position outside to call a close one at 1b. The placement of the fly will likely hint at where the throw will go. PRR, pause, read and react.

How does that solve Manny's original concern involving the runner approaching 3B?

If you (U1) don't chase, take a couple of steps foul or simply open up to watch tagup at 1st.or dropped ball and the ensuing scramble. Your angle will be fine in foul to see it all. Be aware of first base coach.

If U3 chases, unless you (U1) will end up right in a throwing lane for a play at 2b, watch tag while opened up, then parallel runner into 2b while rimming outside. If you feel you will be squeezed, you can always default to pivoting inside (button hooking) since you already know how, but you will need to know ball status and prepitch your secondary calling position at 2b to determine you going inside.

PU comes inside the diamond and has a good look at the throwback to help at 1b if there is one since he will likely be trailing BR anyways if its close.

And who is covering the plate for the runner scoring from 2B? If there is a ball to the OF, the PU stays home.

This is all PPP, pre pitch planning. Thinking umpires. No longer are we told X marks the spot where you must go.

And if you ever received proper training, there never was. But then again, you are not interested in anything that doesn't fit your agenda.

You working 3-man which NCAA dominates. Be ahead of the runners if possible, let them come to you, and stay outa the way by button hooking as little as possible, unless you must when working ASA.

Consider that when working outside, you have far less worry about crossing running lanes to make you uncomfortable like you felt, and can concentrate more on throwing lanes, and all the while maintaining ball status to help you make those decisions.

If doing it right, and I assume we are talking about umpires who supposedly know what they are doing, an umpire should never worry about crossing a runner's path. If you do, you need to either put in a little more hustle in your giddy-up or just wait for the runner to pass and step in behind. It is not that big a deal.

And if you are inside, there is no additional concern about "throwing lanes", yet still have the ball, base, runners & defenders in front of you, and can adjust position and angles for any unanticipated plays with minimal effort.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by shagpal

If you (U3) are rotated and U1 chases caught, you are already at 2b. Watch tagup and wait for runner to come to you, be ahead of the runner. If dropped, stay at 2b for throw into 2b, or take several steps towards 1b ending up in the rotated B position outside to call a close one at 1b.

The correct (SUP) mechanic for that sitch is U3 "moves inside the diamond to a position to see a tag up on R1 at first base [and/or] to call any play on R1 at first or second base."

If U3 chases, unless you (U1) will end up right in a throwing lane for a play at 2b, watch tag while opened up, then [B] parallel runner into 2b while rimming outside. If you feel you will be squeezed, you can always default to pivoting inside (button hooking) since you already know how, but you will need to know ball status and prepitch your secondary calling position at 2b to determine you going inside.

The Manual does not have that movement to inside the diamond as a button hook. From an opened position in foul territory, U1 cuts in at an angle behind the BR as she rounds first base then moves parallel with R1 to second base.

PU comes inside the diamond and has a good look at the throwback to help at 1b if there is one since he will likely be trailing BR anyways if its close.

Careful here, as the PU does not trail up the first base line in this sitch. PU's proper movement "is toward the holding area in front of the circle."

Yes, PU's priority's on that movement (in addition to communicating with U1 that U3 has chased) are (a.)"watch the play from the hit and be prepared to give help if requested" and (b.)"watch any play at first base or second base and be prepared to give help if requested." But "as R1 advances to second base [PU's next priority], move to a primary position for a tag play at third base."

You working 3-man which NCAA dominates.

8 possible runner configurations that require 235 pages and close to 170 Mechanigrams in the Manual to describe and illustrate the priorities, responsibilities, movements, and positioning of all three umpires so that as a crew the "play coverage will [hopefully] be flawless."

Yes, NCAA mechanics encourage umpires to be "thinking umpires" but it's based on the premise that "umpires must have a thorough awareness and understanding of the responsibilities, requirements and expectations of, not only the position they're working but all positions." A thorough understanding of the mechanics found in the SUP Manual cannot be over emphasized. The importance of conveying them to others as written goes without saying.

[ASA Ump MN]

You paid for that vs getting paid, right?

We were paid for the games we worked in the tournament. This was the 2012 Slow Pitch advanced camp in Lincoln, Nebraska.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I have never been, seen, heard or taken part in teaching anyone to go a spot. I don't see it anywhere in the ASA or ISF manual. Parameters, yes; Specific spot, no.

However, recently ASA have had NUS members lock on the DVD and like the mechanics at the schools and clinics, the DVDs were meant to be an aid, not the bible. Those folks are not helpful to anyone, the umpire or the UIC who has to work with that umpire.

Unfortunately, with some UIC's, the difference between making Sunday or going home Saturday night could be whether or not these "spots" were adhered to, rather than did the umpire use all of the tools available in his tool bag to be the best umpire he can be for any given game.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Skahtboi

Unfortunately, with some UIC's, the difference between making Sunday or going home Saturday night could be whether or not these "spots" were adhered to, rather than did the umpire use all of the tools available in his tool bag to be the best umpire he can be for any given game.

And that is sad, but apparently, I've never run into any of them. Well, I take that back. I've run into some, but not as an umpire. And when I would send an umpire to work for that type of UIC, I would warn them ahead of time how to deal with them.

Guess I must have been lucky in my assignments, clinics and schools. But there is nothing in the manual nor clinic guide telling an umpire to go to a spot and make the call.

[shagpal]

College has many advanced camps

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Yes, NCAA mechanics encourage umpires to be "thinking umpires" but it's based on the premise that "umpires must have a thorough awareness and understanding of the responsibilities, requirements and expectations of, not only the position they're working but all positions." A thorough understanding of the mechanics found in the SUP Manual cannot be over emphasized. The importance of conveying them to others as written goes without saying.