U3 Button-Hook

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by shagpal

(snip) So either you will do as told and work, or you won't and you won't work.

(snip)

Funny, that's how it is a my straight job, too.

[shagpal]

Or find a better boss and job. Not everyone can, but we all wish we could.

Luckily we are independent contractors, and free will wins.

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

Funny, that's how it is a my straight job, too.

[MD Longhorn]

I leave it to the peanut gallery to guess which member of this conversation has never attended an upper level clinic.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by shagpal

Luckily we are independent contractors, and free will wins.

Schedulers are independent as well, free to schedule those who will perform as they are asked, as opposed to simply making stuff as they go and running around where they want. I grant that the umpire population is sometimes not so great that this sort of umpire never works at all ... but those who work at their craft, strive to get better, and continue to learn will get more (and better) games in the long run.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by shagpal

....I am suggesting we can be thinking umpires and consider better mechanics. Most that do have moved on....

I agree with you in theory...advanced umpires should be allowed to use advanced mechanics that are potentially better for the game and level they are calling.

Where this falls apart is, who or how is it determined which umpires are advanced? This is especially true when you have a collection of umpires from across a wide area.

Case in point..ASA 18Gold National a few years back. 40 umpires from all regions of the country. I posed the question to the UIC...why can't we (advanced umpires) use the advanced mechanics at this level?

The response I got back was...How do you know all of the umpires here are "advanced" umpires? We have three umpires here who have told me (UIC) that they have NEVER worked a three umpire game. Granted that should fall back on those that sent them to this tournament knowing that the majority of the tournament was going to be in the three umpire system, but the fact remains that had two experienced and advanced umpires been working with one of these three and tried to use the advanced mechanics, it would have screwed things up even more than they already were.

I don't necessarily like the ASA position of one set of basic mechanics for the entire umpire population, but I understand the reasoning behind it.

[shagpal]

Andy, we can all agree that advanced mechanics are not for everyone. If it was, it would no longer be advanced mechanics, it would just be normal, as in for the masses, which it is not. The ASA fulfills its purpose.

For some, an ASA FP camp is as advanced as it might get, and I think there is a place for that. For others, it might be Steve Arnold's Next Level camp. Whatever fits, I say use it, but any level deserves questioning and challenge to keep it on its toes.

One thing that gets me how tolerant college umpires were to my ASA mechanics but the sheer intolerance of the nazi ASA and its devout gestapo attack cabal.

The other side might be greener, but it isn't the grass.

Originally Posted by Andy

I agree with you in theory...advanced umpires should be allowed to use advanced mechanics that are potentially better for the game and level they are calling.

Where this falls apart is, who or how is it determined which umpires are advanced? This is especially true when you have a collection of umpires from across a wide area.

Case in point..ASA 18Gold National a few years back. 40 umpires from all regions of the country. I posed the question to the UIC...why can't we (advanced umpires) use the advanced mechanics at this level?

The response I got back was...How do you know all of the umpires here are "advanced" umpires? We have three umpires here who have told me (UIC) that they have NEVER worked a three umpire game. Granted that should fall back on those that sent them to this tournament knowing that the majority of the tournament was going to be in the three umpire system, but the fact remains that had two experienced and advanced umpires been working with one of these three and tried to use the advanced mechanics, it would have screwed things up even more than they already were.

I don't necessarily like the ASA position of one set of basic mechanics for the entire umpire population, but I understand the reasoning behind it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Sorry if this post sounds a little arcane, but I'm having trouble visualizing what ASA wants from U3 under three-man when it says U3 should button-hook inside the diamond on a base hit to the outfield. I went through some three-man training yesterday in prep for a National, and I was screwing things up left and right.

How is that button-hook executed? Does U3 go down foul territory, pivot 90 degrees into the infield in front of third base, and then button-hook to watch a runner touch third? Or does U3 go straight to the button-hook position through fair territory, similar to how U1 executes it?

I tried the latter, but I quickly realized that I could easily get into the runner's path as she was approaching third. So then I tried to wait to let the runner pass, and by then I felt I could get into trouble if there was a throw to third should the runner take too wide a turn.

Then I tried by going down foul territory, but that also seemed to take too much time, and I still felt I might get into the runner's path as she rounded the base.

The only time I really felt comfortable was when there were runners at first and third, and I didn't have a runner heading for the base. I would still go down foul territory and then come in. But I'm still unsure that's the "ASA School Solution" on how to execute.

Comments?

Do you button-hook @ 1B? Why would it be different @ 3B?

My opinion:

It seems your concern is the runner coming from 2B while you are on 3rd. Remember, depending upon the situation, you may also have F5 & F6 in the area.

I would not set 18-21 feet behind the base, but closer to 10-12', if that. Assume you are not going out. if the ball is to center or right, take your time, let the runner pass and come inside.

If to left, make sure there will not be a quick throw to 3B. If it is on the line, it isn't too hard to take a couple steps fair out of the line of the throw. If away from the line, stay foul and get an angle on the play. If there is no play, take an outside route to avoid the runner. Look out for the coach and F5 returning to cover 3B. Depending on your UIC, you may get asked why you went that way. Just tell them why and you should be fine. Don't think you would get gigged on it as long as you get inside without incident.

When the ball is to right, don't come in too deep, stay near the line. This is where Henry and I had a nice "discussion" in Plant City because coming inside where an umpire would normally button-hook can place the umpire in the path of the throw, not a good place to be. He did not disagree with me, but the mechanic was the mechanic.

AFA staying outside, who is covering 1B & 2B, if you think there will a play @ 3B, but U1 decides to go?

[shagpal]

Would U1 chase on a clean base hit?

Even if U1 goes out to chase on a ground ball in error, it reverts to 2-man, and U3 has to go inside to take BR on the ASA chute play, PU takes runner into 3b, just as in 2-man.

OP is asking about NO CHASE.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

AFA staying outside, who is covering 1B & 2B, if you think there will a play @ 3B, but U1 decides to go?

Originally Posted by Manny A

That's what I did the first time a runner approached third on a clean base hit. And my association UIC who was providing the training said ASA wants us to button-hook on those. I checked the Umpire Manual, and sure enough that's what it instructs.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

Would U1 chase on a clean base hit?

Even if U1 goes out to chase on a ground ball in error, it reverts to 2-man, and U3 has to go inside to take BR on the ASA chute play, PU takes runner into 3b, just as in 2-man.

OP is asking about NO CHASE.

No, it said a base hit. Problem is what you may think is a clean base hit, U1 may not. I've seen people go out on a line drive that didn't get above the infielders' shoulders.

And you are not going to get a decent look at 2B or 3B from the outside. But I'm sure some people believe it is "good enough". I don't.

[xtremeump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Do you button-hook @ 1B? Why would it be different @ 3B?

My opinion:

It seems your concern is the runner coming from 2B while you are on 3rd. Remember, depending upon the situation, you may also have F5 & F6 in the area.

I would not set 18-21 feet behind the base, but closer to 10-12', if that. Assume you are not going out. if the ball is to center or right, take your time, let the runner pass and come inside.

If to left, make sure there will not be a quick throw to 3B. If it is on the line, it isn't too hard to take a couple steps fair out of the line of the throw. If away from the line, stay foul and get an angle on the play. If there is no play, take an outside route to avoid the runner. Look out for the coach and F5 returning to cover 3B. Depending on your UIC, you may get asked why you went that way. Just tell them why and you should be fine. Don't think you would get gigged on it as long as you get inside without incident.

When the ball is to right, don't come in too deep, stay near the line. This is where Henry and I had a nice "discussion" in Plant City because coming inside where an umpire would normally button-hook can place the umpire in the path of the throw, not a good place to be. He did not disagree with me, but the mechanic was the mechanic.

AFA staying outside, who is covering 1B & 2B, if you think there will a play @ 3B, but U1 decides to go?

Your post is very nice : ) tell me what is the diference in your post and my post ? Your wording is more articulate. mine is more WORKING MAN !!

Let the play take you to your position, sometimes in, sometimes foul, and I also agree sometimes outside. Do not be a ROBOT, know the game and get to where you have the best angle for your calls without being in the way of the playing action. 3 man mechanics are great, do not be overwhelmed by everyone telling you that there is a perfect position all of the time. Sorry for the long post and I hope that I didn't hurt anyone's feelings. I did not do well in TIME OUT.

[shagpal]

Man, you are ASA THICK. "CLEAN BASE HIT" and NO CHASE, reread this thread. I had even quoted it for you.

and, if it reverts to 2-man on any U1 chase for whatever reason, good or bad, its the chute play. No way for U3 to cover BR from the outside. U3 has to cut across the diamond. Why would U3 be watching 3b on the chute play? That's PU.

What is your point?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, it said a base hit. Problem is what you may think is a clean base hit, U1 may not. I've seen people go out on a line drive that didn't get above the infielders' shoulders.

And you are not going to get a decent look at 2B or 3B from the outside. But I'm sure some people believe it is "good enough". I don't.

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by shagpal

Man, you are ASA THICK. "CLEAN BASE HIT" and NO CHASE, reread this thread. I had even quoted it for you.

and, if it reverts to 2-man on any U1 chase for whatever reason, good or bad, its the chute play. No way for U3 to cover BR from the outside. U3 has to cut across the diamond. Why would U3 be watching 3b on the chute play? That's PU.

What is your point?

so back to the OP, in 'your closed shop world' , what is the best way for U3 to 'come inside' (as it would be the prescribed mechanic in both worlds esp if U1 went out) using the outside/in theory (or button hook)?

[shagpal]

I'm not closed shop. I have mechanics I see as better or worse. NCAA has some kooky mechanics too.

To me, button hooking when unnecessary is piss poor overworking, period. Its do nothing for nothing.

I'll let mike respond and let you change the subject later.

Originally Posted by okla21fan

so back to the OP, in 'your closed shop world' , what is the best way for U3 to 'come inside' (as it would be the prescribed mechanic in both worlds esp if U1 went out) using the outside/in theory (or button hook)?

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by shagpal

To me, button hooking when unnecessary is piss poor overworking, period. Its do nothing for nothing.

its not a question of necessary or not. we are talking the prescribed mechanic (which is the question from the OP). be it ASA or your 'chute' play. So with a runner on 2nd advancing to 3rd, in either 'world', what is the preferred way to come inside and button hook?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by xtremeump

Sorry for the long post and I hope that I didn't hurt anyone's feelings. I did not do well in TIME OUT.

The key will be whether you learned anything from the experience.