ASA Should Be Ashamed

[outathm]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Cannot answer for anyone else, but I would assume he meant that a tournament specific to sell international softball in the United States needs to be seen as an international game played under international rules and officiated by international umpires. It also offers the appearance, even though there is none in the case, of non-partisan officials indifferent to the countries represented.

I did mean to say that ISF dropped the ball. I have no issue with ASA uniforms being worn, but it should be an ASA tournament to do so. I seem to remember last year tuning in to the "Premiere Girls Championship' games being televised on one of the 'other' sports only channels and seeing the umpires all wearing ASA gear, to include the ball bags on the plate umpire.

Now admittedly, I notice umpires more than the casual viewer, but the 'mom or dad' who was tuning in late would think this was an ASA tournament. The same is true of this tournament, with ASA being worn by the umpires. The casual observer would not have known this was being played under international rules, they would only see another 'brand' prominently displayed.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by outathm

I did mean to say that ISF dropped the ball. I have no issue with ASA uniforms being worn, but it should be an ASA tournament to do so. I seem to remember last year tuning in to the "Premiere Girls Championship' games being televised on one of the 'other' sports only channels and seeing the umpires all wearing ASA gear, to include the ball bags on the plate umpire.

Now admittedly, I notice umpires more than the casual viewer, but the 'mom or dad' who was tuning in late would think this was an ASA tournament. The same is true of this tournament, with ASA being worn by the umpires. The casual observer would not have known this was being played under international rules, they would only see another 'brand' prominently displayed.

Not sure what tournament you saw, but I can ABSOLUTELY guarantee you did not see ASA anything at the Premier. SoCal ASA even had people there watching and taking pictures of who was there; there would have been an instant lawsuit for trademark infringement if PGF used anything ASA.

I am sure you saw it somewhere, but it wasn't there.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

...there would have been an instant lawsuit for trademark infringement if PGF used anything ASA...

During the political dust-up that has gone on here the last several years between the state ASA commissioner and those opposed to him, there was "policing" of (or an attempt to police) umpires wearing ASA-logoed gear at the "opponents" tournaments by the state ASA commissioner's office. There were no threats of trademark lawsuits (AFAIK), but there were letters sent to umpires and such.

I never understood the rationale behind this, however.

Getting your brand out there is fundamental to promotion. Why would the ASA itself be opposed to having the competition have to visibly use ASA umpires? It seems to me it would indicate the opponent organization is lacking to the point they have to look to the ASA to provide officials. Why is this bad for ASA?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

During the political dust-up that has gone on here the last several years between the state ASA commissioner and those opposed to him, there was "policing" of (or an attempt to police) umpires wearing ASA-logoed gear at the "opponents" tournaments by the state ASA commissioner's office. There were no threats of trademark lawsuits (AFAIK), but there were letters sent to umpires and such.

I never understood the rationale behind this, however.

Getting your brand out there is fundamental to promotion. Why would the ASA itself be opposed to having the competition have to visibly use ASA umpires? It seems to me it would indicate the opponent organization is lacking to the point they have to look to the ASA to provide officials. Why is this bad for ASA?

Why would a Ford commercial run footage showing a Chevy win a race at Daytona? Do you think Anheuser-Busch wouldn't take action if Sam Adams ran a spot showing a Clydesdale-drawn wagon loaded with Sam Adam's product entering Fenway Park?

Though lawsuits should be the last resort, if you are working ABC you should wear ABC's uniform. If XYZ did not want their brand associated with a competitor, they have every right to demand their trademarked logo is not included in any events other than those in which they choose to do so.

I didn't have a problem telling umpires working a PONY tournament to find another hat, shirt or ball bag that did not have ASA on it. I would not do it publicly or at the event I was observing, but afterwards at a local meeting or if I saw them.

It is a reasonable demand of any organization that values their brand.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why would a Ford commercial run footage showing a Chevy win a race at Daytona?

Because they have so few of their own to run?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I didn't have a problem telling umpires working a PONY tournament to find another hat, shirt or ball bag that did not have ASA on it. I would not do it publicly or at the event I was observing, but afterwards at a local meeting or if I saw them.

It is a reasonable demand of any organization that values their brand.

It is, of course, their right to request / demand that their brand not be associated with another event. And, I never wore ASA-logoed gear when it was not an ASA-sanctioned game/tournament (referring to my post, above). I'm not arguing XYZ's right to object, just wondering about the wisdom of it as opposed to making hay from it. Would Chevy sue if Ford publicized their win at Daytona? Perhaps they would; maybe they shouldn't!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Getting your brand out there is fundamental to promotion. Why would the ASA itself be opposed to having the competition have to visibly use ASA umpires? It seems to me it would indicate the opponent organization is lacking to the point they have to look to the ASA to provide officials. Why is this bad for ASA?

You ever umpire with someone you were almost embarrassed they were wearing the same uniform?

Ever have a discussion with a coach who insisted the ASA rule was this or that because the umpire had an ASA on his hat or shirt when in fact it was another organization, but YOU are the one who is wrong?

Could go on all night, but I don't think you would bother reading

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

You ever umpire with someone you were almost embarrassed they were wearing the same uniform?

Yes, of course. But they were wearing the proper logos for the sanction!

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Ever have a discussion with a coach who insisted the ASA rule was this or that because the umpire had an ASA on his hat or shirt when in fact it was another organization, but YOU are the one who is wrong?

No. I have had coaches make similar arguments, but it had nothing to do with the umpire's hat, but rather the rule set being used at the tournament. And, I'm never wrong!

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Could go on all night, but I don't think you would bother reading

I always read what you write, Mike!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

No. I have had coaches make similar arguments, but it had nothing to do with the umpire's hat, but rather the rule set being used at the tournament. And, I'm never wrong!

A couple years ago, I was working a showcase under ASA sanction. The host organization played ASA travel ball, but their league was PONY sanctioned.

During ground rules, this coach started discussing rules about line-ups and subs, etc. that were PONY or local rule specific. My partner (PU) was becoming frustrated because no matter how many times he noted that wasn't an ASA rule, she just wouldn't shut up and kept rambling. Before he (and the other coach) blew a gasket, I told her, "Ma'am, that may be what your league or other rules allow, this is straight-out-of-the-book ASA rules today." Then she started on me with, "but in PONY..." and I stepped up, held up the ASA logo on my shirt and said, "ASA, not PONY" hoping the visual would get the point across. The opposing coach was pissed, but at the same time laughing wondering what type of coach cannot figure this out.

To my surprise, she stated that my shirt was the same shirt her league umpires wear! That did not make me a happy camper, but not so much they were wearing the uniform, but the information and rules being bantered about were not representative of the ASA game and all that can do is add to the confusion which the rest of us must deal with down the road.

And I doubt that confusion is just one way. Probably plenty of other umpires working non-ASA get tired of hearing what ASA does instead of that of the rule set under which the game in front of them is being played.

I always read what you write, Mike!

Why is it I have a feeling you are just stringing this along to boost your post count to make up for the time lost?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...To my surprise, she stated that my shirt was the same shirt her league umpires wear! That did not make me a happy camper, but not so much they were wearing the uniform, but the information and rules being bantered about were not representative of the ASA game and all that can do is add to the confusion which the rest of us must deal with down the road.

Aw, heck, Mike, for years and years we were ASA-only for girls fastpitch in this state, but with all the state, league, and tournament rules added on / changed, you might not recognize it! Just a few: bat the roster, can play with 8 players with no out when the #9 slot rolls around, umpires have authority to eject fans, strict no-profanity rule against players, coaches, AND fans... We'd have coaches AND umpires that when it came time for championship play, neither had any clue how to manage a line up.

ASA sanction does not preserve the "purity" of the rules.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Why is it I have a feeling you are just stringing this along to boost your post count to make up for the time lost?

Caught me!

[outathm]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Not sure what tournament you saw, but I can ABSOLUTELY guarantee you did not see ASA anything at the Premier. SoCal ASA even had people there watching and taking pictures of who was there; there would have been an instant lawsuit for trademark infringement if PGF used anything ASA.

I am sure you saw it somewhere, but it wasn't there.

I do not have a copy of the tape, but if you can find a cop of the 2012 or 2013 games that were aired on CBS sports, the umpires were wearing ASA gear. I do not care wither way, except that I am also one that will not allow an umpire to wear another organizations gear at a competing tournament.

In reality, the STRONG majority of umpires in the US were either trained by ASA, or trained by someone who was trained by ASA. That is just the way it is. However, if it is not an ASA sanctioned event, ASA gear needs to stay in the car or at home.

[shagpal]

Premier uses modified HS ruleset.

You are likely mistaking it for TCS (triple crown) that does use ASA ruleset.

Originally Posted by outathm

I did mean to say that ISF dropped the ball. I have no issue with ASA uniforms being worn, but it should be an ASA tournament to do so. I seem to remember last year tuning in to the "Premiere Girls Championship' games being televised on one of the 'other' sports only channels and seeing the umpires all wearing ASA gear, to include the ball bags on the plate umpire.

Now admittedly, I notice umpires more than the casual viewer, but the 'mom or dad' who was tuning in late would think this was an ASA tournament. The same is true of this tournament, with ASA being worn by the umpires. The casual observer would not have known this was being played under international rules, they would only see another 'brand' prominently displayed.

[EsqUmp]

When in Rome, dress as a Roman.

In NYS, we have one standard uniform for high school. Only two items have logos on them, the sweater and jacket. The only reason they even have logos is to prevent umpires from buying non-umpire look-a-likes from stores. Nothing else has a logo, that way umpires can use the same uniform for other sanctioned events that don't require a specific uniform.

What I can't understand is why every time I go to a Babe Ruth, Little League or any other game assigned through a local ASA association, all of the umpires are wearing ASA uniforms. That's leaving aside the fact that ASA is printed on everything from the guys socks to his ball bags. Umpires begin to look like bulletin boards rather than officials.

My hat is never going to contradict the rules I'm using.

Either wear the uniform of the rule set or wear a plain uniform.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

What I can't understand is why every time I go to a Babe Ruth, Little League or any other game assigned through a local ASA association, all of the umpires are wearing ASA uniforms.

Years ago, my local insisted on ASA caps, etc. for HS because we are an ASA association. I was often criticized for wearing plain uniforms as it clearly said in the HS rule book. We finally corrected that, but it might relate to the issue above; also possibly because of no other uniforms.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

When in Rome, dress as a Roman.

In NYS, we have one standard uniform for high school. Only two items have logos on them, the sweater and jacket. The only reason they even have logos is to prevent umpires from buying non-umpire look-a-likes from stores. Nothing else has a logo, that way umpires can use the same uniform for other sanctioned events that don't require a specific uniform.

What I can't understand is why every time I go to a Babe Ruth, Little League or any other game assigned through a local ASA association, all of the umpires are wearing ASA uniforms. That's leaving aside the fact that ASA is printed on everything from the guys socks to his ball bags. Umpires begin to look like bulletin boards rather than officials.

My hat is never going to contradict the rules I'm using.

Either wear the uniform of the rule set or wear a plain uniform.

Absolutely agree with this - especially the last sentence - "Either wear the uniform of the rule set or wear a plain uniform."

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Absolutely agree with this - especially the last sentence - "Either wear the uniform of the rule set or wear a plain uniform."

Absolutely correct. Most umpires fail to recognize that when you have letters/patches on your shirt/hat/ball bag you could open yourself up to a wide range of issues. Steve, you and I have seen a lot of strange uniforms in our time "on the boarder." It was interesting that a coach once pointed out how my partner and I were dressed in plain uniforms.

What this thread has failed to addressed is the 'why?'. My theory is purely economics. Most won't spend the extra money on plain clothing. For example, my area runs a regional college club tournament in the fall. This is their first experience with "college ball" (it is about one level below DIII). They play with NCAA rules with some modifications. The local guys have ASA and State HS hats, and I keep harping on not wearing logo'ed hats. They won't purchase them. Most wear a plain jacket, so the shirt really isn't an issue. But I have made numerous attempts to change the hats.