Rules Trivia

[MD Longhorn]

I have no run as well. Several umpires who usually get them right on that site are scoring the run.

[RKBUmp]

Retreating from the base to which the runner was forced reinstates the force out. I would go with no run scoring.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I have no run as well. Several umpires who usually get them right on that site are scoring the run.

I'm kinda curious why. Perhaps they feel that a runner who overslides the bag going back to second really isn't between first and second?

I envision this runner ending up past the bag but still in the line extended between third and second. IOW, her slide took her towards right-center field. Would you really consider that "between first and second"?

[grounder]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I'm kinda curious why. Perhaps they feel that a runner who overslides the bag going back to second really isn't between first and second?

I envision this runner ending up past the bag but still in the line extended between third and second. IOW, her slide took her towards right-center field. Would you really consider that "between first and second"?

good point...but even if the runner did end up in the base line of 1st and 2nd id still have a problem considering her slide back into 2nd base an attempt to retreat to first. i know this is a different situation but i think its comparable. a runner overrunning first base isnt always considered an attempt to go to second base but as an umpire we are trained to detect any attempt or motion that we consider an attempt to advance to 2nd and then rule accordingly...i think the same logic should apply to the OP

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by grounder

good point...but even if the runner did end up in the base line of 1st and 2nd id still have a problem considering her slide back into 2nd base an attempt to retreat to first. i know this is a different situation but i think its comparable. a runner overrunning first base isnt always considered an attempt to go to second base but as an umpire we are trained to detect any attempt or motion that we consider an attempt to advance to 2nd and then rule accordingly...i think the same logic should apply to the OP

THE RUNNER IS OUT.
When, on a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball, or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base. If the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base first occupied, the force play is reinstated and the runner may again be put out if the defense tags the runner or the base to which the runner is forced.

[grounder]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

THE RUNNER IS OUT.
When, on a force play, a fielder contacts the base while holding the ball, or tags the runner before the runner reaches the base. If the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base first occupied, the force play is reinstated and the runner may again be put out if the defense tags the runner or the base to which the runner is forced.

i understand that and would respect your decision rule accordingly if you considered the overslide back to second a retreat to first base. my arguement being an overslide back to second is just that, an overslide to second not an attempt to retreat to first base in most cases..also, if you consider it a retreat, a runner sliding back into second after rounding it is not reallty retreating 'towards' the base first occupied. they are retreating 'towards' right field as manny alluded to

[IRISHMAFIA]

Okay, forget the "slide" portion, it is irrelevant.

The point that the player was running the bases in reverse order and passed 2B. If you want to be logical, if there was no trailing R/BR, ask yourself if this runner can now retreat to 1B? Would you make the runner retouch 2B before doing so?

[grounder]

ok...thank you..i certainly understand why the ruling would be that way. i was just trying to look at it from another angle..i fought the good fight and lost..lol...the good thing is that if this play ever does happen i will know the correct call...thank you all for the debate and informative feedback

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by grounder

i understand that and would respect your decision rule accordingly if you considered the overslide back to second a retreat to first base. my arguement being an overslide back to second is just that, an overslide to second not an attempt to retreat to first base in most cases..also, if you consider it a retreat, a runner sliding back into second after rounding it is not reallty retreating 'towards' the base first occupied. they are retreating 'towards' right field as manny alluded to

I agree. An overslide of second base is not what the intent of the rule would seem to be. I would call this an out at second for the tag, but in ASA it would not be a force out.



Now let's put this back into NFHS rules for a second. What would the NFHS call be. Let's say as they tagged her out, the defense also appeals that she missed second base, what do you have?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I agree. An overslide of second base is not what the intent of the rule would seem to be. I would call this an out at second for the tag, but in ASA it would not be a force out.

That would probably be a protest lost. Rule clearly states that the force is reinstated.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by grounder

i understand that and would respect your decision rule accordingly if you considered the overslide back to second a retreat to first base. my arguement being an overslide back to second is just that, an overslide to second not an attempt to retreat to first base in most cases..also, if you consider it a retreat, a runner sliding back into second after rounding it is not reallty retreating 'towards' the base first occupied. they are retreating 'towards' right field as manny alluded to

You keep saying an attempt. It's not an attempt to do anything. It doesn't have to be. It's an actual runner who is now closer to 1st than 3rd. The force is back on, by rule.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I can see both sides of the argument.

If she was running from 1st to 2nd overslid the base and was tagged out, she achieved 2nd base negating the force play. Then it becomes a timing play - did the runner score before the tag or not.

In the OP, she is assumed to have touched the base when passing it and this would have been an appeal situation based on defense noticing the missed base. But she realized the miss and went back to touch. Sliding in and (assumedly touching the base) removed the appeal possibility. Oversliding and perhaps losing contact with the base by her fingers or standing up and losing her balance to the first base side of the base and her foot lifting up off the base while being tagged out is a tough sell for me to re-instate the force play. If I didn't think she was actually trying to return to 1B, this is where my logic is apparently in conflict with the rule.

But I don't make the rules, only try to understand them and rule accordingly.