Rules Trivia

[IRISHMAFIA]

Okay, forget the "slide" portion, it is irrelevant.

The point that the player was running the bases in reverse order and passed 2B. If you want to be logical, if there was no trailing R/BR, ask yourself if this runner can now retreat to 1B? Would you make the runner retouch 2B before doing so?

[grounder]

ok...thank you..i certainly understand why the ruling would be that way. i was just trying to look at it from another angle..i fought the good fight and lost..lol...the good thing is that if this play ever does happen i will know the correct call...thank you all for the debate and informative feedback

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by grounder

i understand that and would respect your decision rule accordingly if you considered the overslide back to second a retreat to first base. my arguement being an overslide back to second is just that, an overslide to second not an attempt to retreat to first base in most cases..also, if you consider it a retreat, a runner sliding back into second after rounding it is not reallty retreating 'towards' the base first occupied. they are retreating 'towards' right field as manny alluded to

I agree. An overslide of second base is not what the intent of the rule would seem to be. I would call this an out at second for the tag, but in ASA it would not be a force out.



Now let's put this back into NFHS rules for a second. What would the NFHS call be. Let's say as they tagged her out, the defense also appeals that she missed second base, what do you have?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I agree. An overslide of second base is not what the intent of the rule would seem to be. I would call this an out at second for the tag, but in ASA it would not be a force out.

That would probably be a protest lost. Rule clearly states that the force is reinstated.

[DeputyUICHousto]

The rule states "for any reason". I think it's pretty clear.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by grounder

i understand that and would respect your decision rule accordingly if you considered the overslide back to second a retreat to first base. my arguement being an overslide back to second is just that, an overslide to second not an attempt to retreat to first base in most cases..also, if you consider it a retreat, a runner sliding back into second after rounding it is not reallty retreating 'towards' the base first occupied. they are retreating 'towards' right field as manny alluded to

You keep saying an attempt. It's not an attempt to do anything. It doesn't have to be. It's an actual runner who is now closer to 1st than 3rd. The force is back on, by rule.

[Tru_in_Blu]

I can see both sides of the argument.

If she was running from 1st to 2nd overslid the base and was tagged out, she achieved 2nd base negating the force play. Then it becomes a timing play - did the runner score before the tag or not.

In the OP, she is assumed to have touched the base when passing it and this would have been an appeal situation based on defense noticing the missed base. But she realized the miss and went back to touch. Sliding in and (assumedly touching the base) removed the appeal possibility. Oversliding and perhaps losing contact with the base by her fingers or standing up and losing her balance to the first base side of the base and her foot lifting up off the base while being tagged out is a tough sell for me to re-instate the force play. If I didn't think she was actually trying to return to 1B, this is where my logic is apparently in conflict with the rule.

But I don't make the rules, only try to understand them and rule accordingly.

[Manny A]

I still don't agree with this premise that a runner "retreats for any reason towards the base first occupied" when she overslides the base in reverse, especially if that overslide doesn't take the runner into the general direction of that previous base. To me, the key word is "retreats", which implies an active, bona fide attempt to return.

If you believe that an overslide in the opposite direction is considered retreating, then how would you treat a BR who singles, takes a wide turn at first, tries to dive back to the bag when the defense makes a play on her, and she overslides the bag as F3 tries to tag her? Are you going to invoke the rule that penalizes a BR for retreating back to home to avoid a tag, and immediately call a Dead Ball and rule her out?

Bases are 60' apart. If a runner overslides a bag in reverse, and she remains more than 60' away from the previous base, how is she between the bases?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I still don't agree with this premise that a runner "retreats for any reason towards the base first occupied" when she overslides the base in reverse, especially if that overslide doesn't take the runner into the general direction of that previous base. To me, the key word is "retreats", which implies an active, bona fide attempt to return.

If you believe that an overslide in the opposite direction is considered retreating, then how would you treat a BR who singles, takes a wide turn at first, tries to dive back to the bag when the defense makes a play on her, and she overslides the bag as F3 tries to tag her? Are you going to invoke the rule that penalizes a BR for retreating back to home to avoid a tag, and immediately call a Dead Ball and rule her out?

Bases are 60' apart. If a runner overslides a bag in reverse, and she remains more than 60' away from the previous base, how is she between the bases?

Taking this a little further. Bases loaded shot to shallow outfield. Center takes the ball to second where she just misses getting a sliding R3. Without calling time R3 decides to get up and as she does F6 tags her while she is standing just off the bag between first and second. Are you really not counting that run?

[MD Longhorn]

Manny, if the ball got away during the overslide, and the runner then attempts to advance to third, but doesn't step on 2nd - what's your ruling on the appeal of a missed base at 2nd?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

If you believe that an overslide in the opposite direction is considered retreating, then how would you treat a BR who singles, takes a wide turn at first, tries to dive back to the bag when the defense makes a play on her, and she overslides the bag as F3 tries to tag her? Are you going to invoke the rule that penalizes a BR for retreating back to home to avoid a tag, and immediately call a Dead Ball and rule her out?

That's interesting.

Originally Posted by Manny A

Bases are 60' apart. If a runner overslides a bag in reverse, and she remains more than 60' away from the previous base, how is she between the bases?

That's not relevant to me.

[IRISHMAFIA]

I challenge ANYONE to show me ANYTHING which mentions "oversliding" as being relevant in this process?

You are all talking in ****ing circles and making up every little excuse you can trying to justify "your belief".

Was the runner proceeding in a reverse order? Once the runner got up, can the runner than go to 1B? If there wasn't a runner there, or a BR still advancing to that base, would not the answer be yes? If the runner does that and the play comes to an end, are you going to call time and award the runner 2B because that was they base that was touched? However, since there is a trailing runner, this cannot be anything, but a force out.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I challenge ANYONE to show me ANYTHING which mentions "oversliding" as being relevant in this process?

You are all talking in ****ing circles and making up every little excuse you can trying to justify "your belief".

Was the runner proceeding in a reverse order? Once the runner got up, can the runner than go to 1B? If there wasn't a runner there, or a BR still advancing to that base, would not the answer be yes? If the runner does that and the play comes to an end, are you going to call time and award the runner 2B because that was they base that was touched? However, since there is a trailing runner, this cannot be anything, but a force out.

Define RETREAT.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Define RETREAT.

Why? Why would you ask him to define a word he did not use?

[MD Longhorn]

Manny ... I'll ask another question. Say, after the overslide, the runner was contacted by a fielder and obstructed in some way. Would you say that runner was obstructed between 2nd and 3rd? Or between 1st and 2nd?

The runner is obviously not on 2nd. The runner is obviously not between 2nd and 3rd. So ... where is the runner? Very plainly (and obviously, to most of us) between 1st and 2nd. And due to the existence of a BR at 1st, the runner is, by rule, forced to advance to 2nd.