Appeasment Does not work

[EsqUmp]

Not seeing a tag is different than seeing that there wasn't a tag.

Let's say your partner actually said, "I saw that there was no tag." However, you saw that there was a tag, hence your hesitation in "going for help" in the first place.

So now we have one "tag" and one "no tag." That's still not good enough to overturn a call. Now what do you do? You're going to keep the call the same because there isn't enough evidence to overturn it. Now your partner (if it were me) is going to be pissed because you're not doing anything with what I told you.

Softball has made a joke of coaches coming onto the field or across the field to argue. The problem is exacerbated by the "be my friend umpire" who tells the coaches in the pre-game conference, "If you have a question about a call, wait for all play to end, ask for time and go to the umpire who made the call." Imagine saying that in a basketball game or football game. You'd be laughed out of town.

[shagpal]

"OK coach, I'll ask the other umpire if I also get to ask the opposing coach sitting in the dugout what he thinks."

[outathm]

Originally Posted by shagpal

"OK coach, I'll ask the other umpire if I also get to ask the opposing coach sitting in the dugout what he thinks."

I really was too close to saying something exactly like this. At this point in the tournament I was way beyond done, and ready to just leave.

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by Steve M

Hang on a minute, Sander.
When You are able to answer the coach with something to the effect of "Coach, I was in the proper position and I saw all the elements of the play." - it's wrong to ask your partner for help.

Correct. However when you feel that by consulting your partner the unhappy coach can be cooled down, why not. You can even go over to tell your partner a joke.
How often do we get a coach come over to talk to us, just for show to his team? This coach starts with something like: "Blue, I don't have anything, but my team must see that I'm talking with you over this call. You were correct in though!" We can also do this...

In fact, I've done something like this with a catcher in our male-league. A batter, or runner was not happy with an action by F2. Which was completely legal and had nothing to do with unsportsmanlike behavior. So first I calmed down the offensive player, then I took F2 with me for a walk in foul territory towards right-field. I told F2 that I didn't had anything to say to him, but wanted the others to see me talk to him. He just had to say "Yes, sir..." like he got a warning. Which he did gladly, without a smile. That smile he gave me after the games, with a beer for me...

By reading the other posts about how the tournament was (badly) organised, I don't think I would appease and go over. In the Dutch competition, only 8 teams, appeasing can sometimes help you. Just as a joke with - and a smile for the coach can clear skies. You Steve, have seen how we, here in the Neth's, get (or not get) along with coaches and players.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by outathm

As to what Someone else said. I am of the same mindset. I finished the tournament, but am having some serious second thoughts about working this coming weekend for the same Letter Group and UIC.

I agree you finish the tournament, personaly I wouldn't want to leave the other umpires there to pick up games that I walked away from. About working this weekend....have you contacted that UIC's boss? And unless it is one person in the Nation, that UIC has a boss. I am sure they would like to know that this person is allowing ejected coaches to stay in the park, cause as someone pointed out if they don't enforce that rule what other rules are we letting slide this weekend????

[Andy]

When a coach asks me to go for help on a call, I will ask him/her why they are asking. If the response is "the fielder bobbled the ball" or "she pulled her foot off the base" or something similar that I did not see, I have no problem going to my partner.

If the response to my question is "I think they had a better angle" or "I want you to see what they had" the answer is no. My response is "Coach, it's my call, I saw everything I needed to see, the fact that you don't like or agree with my call is not a valid reason for me to go for help, we're playing ball now."

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Andy

When a coach asks me to go for help on a call, I will ask him/her why they are asking. If the response is "the fielder bobbled the ball" or "she pulled her foot off the base" or something similar that I did not see, I have no problem going to my partner.

If the response to my question is "I think they had a better angle" or "I want you to see what they had" the answer is no. My response is "Coach, it's my call, I saw everything I needed to see, the fact that you don't like or agree with my call is not a valid reason for me to go for help, we're playing ball now."

What they don't seem to understand on the "I think they had a better angle" nonsense is that if we have two umpires who saw the same event differently - the umpire who the call belongs to by default has the better angle and position - so you would defer to that umpire anyway... and since that's the guy who made the initial call, there's never reason to get help on "I think they had a better angle".

[AtlUmpSteve]

One of my favorite responses is "So, do you think the other umpire can have me unsee what I saw? Because, as long as I saw it, my call takes the priority!! Coach, I assure you if there was any doubt in my mind, anything that person can add that I didn't see, I would gladly give you the consideration. But, since there is nothing there that person can subtract from what I have already seen, we need to move on."

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

Not seeing a tag is different than seeing that there wasn't a tag.

Let's say your partner actually said, "I saw that there was no tag." However, you saw that there was a tag, hence your hesitation in "going for help" in the first place.

So now we have one "tag" and one "no tag." That's still not good enough to overturn a call. Now what do you do? You're going to keep the call the same because there isn't enough evidence to overturn it. Now your partner (if it were me) is going to be pissed because you're not doing anything with what I told you.

Softball has made a joke of coaches coming onto the field or across the field to argue. The problem is exacerbated by the "be my friend umpire" who tells the coaches in the pre-game conference, "If you have a question about a call, wait for all play to end, ask for time and go to the umpire who made the call." Imagine saying that in a basketball game or football game. You'd be laughed out of town.

Then we are back to the same old thing. You should not be going to your partner if you are sure of your call.

If you ask me what I saw I will tell you what I saw.
If I am not sure (angle, watching other action, blocked view), I will let you know, and I hope you would tell the coach "The out stands - He couldn't help" or "he was blocked" or something like that.

But if I saw a miss (in this case) and tell you and then you stuck with the out call, you have just thrown ME under the proverbial bus.

In my original post, I was suggesting you alter the wording to get a more specific answer.

Of course all this is just repeating the part about, "if you have all the information you don't go for help". If you have any doubt, go for help, expect an honest answer and go with that answer,

[tcannizzo]

+10,000 finish the assignment.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What they don't seem to understand on the "I think they had a better angle" nonsense is that if we have two umpires who saw the same event differently - the umpire who the call belongs to by default has the better angle and position - so you would defer to that umpire anyway... and since that's the guy who made the initial call, there's never reason to get help on "I think they had a better angle".

Story from this past weekend....

ASA tournament, I am BU. R1 on second, 1 out.
Batter hits a blooper near second base, no fielder can get to it before it lands, I'm anticipating a play to first when R1 decides to take off for third. I have taken a step in toward the infield when F4 retrieves the ball and throws to third. I move parallel with the base line, don't have the perfect angle, but see that the runner slides in to third before the tag, I look to see my PU partner coming up the line, hesitate to see if she has a call, then call the runner safe as PU looks at me and says...oops, your call. Defensive coach now requests time and comes to talk to me. Here is the conversation:

Coach: Can you check with your partner to see if she had a different angle?
Me: I know she had a different angle, coach.
Coach: I want you to ask her if she had a different angle.
Me: I don't need to ask her, coach. I know that she had a different angle.

He then has this deer in the headlights look and walks back to his dugout.

It is later reported to me by the TD (who is also our state commissioner) that I told the coach that I was out of position, but refused to go for help.....

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Andy

Story from this past weekend....

(snip)
Coach: Can you check with your partner to see if she had a different angle?
Me: I know she had a different angle, coach.
Coach: I want you to ask her if she had a different angle.
Me: I don't need to ask her, coach. I know that she had a different angle.

(snip)

:

ROFLMAO
There's one to remember..

[shagpal]

One of my favorite stories comes from Bartling.

On a chase on a shoe string no catch, coach asks for time and walks out to him. Coach says, "you gonna make that call from all the way out here"? So he replies,"Coach, how long did it take you to get from the dugout there to here?". The coach throws his hands up and goes jogging back to the dugout.

Humor, with appropriateness and timing, is indispensable. Never squander a good opportunity.

Originally Posted by outathm

I really was too close to saying something exactly like this. At this point in the tournament I was way beyond done, and ready to just leave.

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by Andy

Story from this past weekend....

ASA tournament, I am BU. R1 on second, 1 out.
Batter hits a blooper near second base, no fielder can get to it before it lands, I'm anticipating a play to first when R1 decides to take off for third. I have taken a step in toward the infield when F4 retrieves the ball and throws to third. I move parallel with the base line, don't have the perfect angle, but see that the runner slides in to third before the tag, I look to see my PU partner coming up the line, hesitate to see if she has a call, then call the runner safe as PU looks at me and says...oops, your call. Defensive coach now requests time and comes to talk to me. Here is the conversation:

Coach: Can you check with your partner to see if she had a different angle?
Me: I know she had a different angle, coach.
Coach: I want you to ask her if she had a different angle.
Me: I don't need to ask her, coach. I know that she had a different angle.

He then has this deer in the headlights look and walks back to his dugout.

It is later reported to me by the TD (who is also our state commissioner) that I told the coach that I was out of position, but refused to go for help.....

I was laughing already when I got to the last paragraph! Oh my goodness!

Thank you for sharing that story.

Rita

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Andy

Story from this past weekend....

Defensive coach now requests time and comes to talk to me. Here is the conversation:

Coach: Can you check with your partner to see if she had a different angle?
Me: I know she had a different angle, coach.
Coach: I want you to ask her if she had a different angle.
Me: I don't need to ask her, coach. I know that she had a different angle.

He then has this deer in the headlights look and walks back to his dugout.

Not fair.........he made it too easy for you Andy!
Great story.