Appeasment Does not work

[outathm]

As if anyone needed to really be told this, Appeasement does not work. I often go through this in my pre-game with my partner, but I worked with the same partner all weekend and I knew even a pre game was not going to help our game.

In an early inning the F4 picked up the ball and brushed against the batter going from 1B to 2B with the ball in her glove and threw to first Base.

I called both runners out and then all the fun started.

The First base coach, and a mom (why does every screaming mom sound the same?) started yelling that the girl missed her by 'a foot and a half'.

When the coach came to me, I told him " I was three feet from the play, saw the girl tagged and the then the out at first." He wanted me to go to my partner. I told him that I had all of the elements to make the call, I was three feet from it, and my partner was 75 feet away, since he hadn't come out from behind the plate.

The coach continued to ask me to go for help, and since I knew that nothing was going to continue until I did, I APPEASED THE COACH.

I asked my partner if he had anything different and he replied with 'I couldn't see a tag, the runner was in my way.'

I signaled the girl out again and then the fun began. The coach wanted to argue that my partner was saying there was no tag. I told him that I had gone for help, when help was not necessary, the conversation was done. AS he was walking back into his dug out he pointed back and said "That guy is an idiot".

Now, normally I would have ejected him at this point. I say normally, but yesterday, I w ejected a coach and after the ejection, the UIC, came to the field and told me that he was allowing the coach to watch the game from the stands, as long as he didn't coach.

Let my horrible mistake be a lesson to us all, when you have the play and do not need help, do not go for help to make a coach happy. They will not be happy no matter what.

I wish I could say that this is what I get for working 'outlaw ball' tournaments, but it was an ASA State tournament.

[Skahtboi]

Originally Posted by outathm

As if anyone needed to really be told this, Appeasement does not work. I often go through this in my pre-game with my partner, but I worked with the same partner all weekend and I knew even a pre game was not going to help our game.

In an early inning the F4 picked up the ball and brushed against the batter going from 1B to 2B with the ball in her glove and threw to first Base.

I called both runners out and then all the fun started.

The First base coach, and a mom (why does every screaming mom sound the same?) started yelling that the girl missed her by 'a foot and a half'.

When the coach came to me, I told him " I was three feet from the play, saw the girl tagged and the then the out at first." He wanted me to go to my partner. I told him that I had all of the elements to make the call, I was three feet from it, and my partner was 75 feet away, since he hadn't come out from behind the plate.

The coach continued to ask me to go for help, and since I knew that nothing was going to continue until I did, I APPEASED THE COACH.

I asked my partner if he had anything different and he replied with 'I couldn't see a tag, the runner was in my way.'

I signaled the girl out again and then the fun began. The coach wanted to argue that my partner was saying there was no tag. I told him that I had gone for help, when help was not necessary, the conversation was done. AS he was walking back into his dug out he pointed back and said "That guy is an idiot".

Now, normally I would have ejected him at this point. I say normally, but yesterday, I w ejected a coach and after the ejection, the UIC, came to the field and told me that he was allowing the coach to watch the game from the stands, as long as he didn't coach.

Let my horrible mistake be a lesson to us all, when you have the play and do not need help, do not go for help to make a coach happy. They will not be happy no matter what.

I wish I could say that this is what I get for working 'outlaw ball' tournaments, but it was an ASA State tournament.

I see so much wrong here.

First of all, you should have held your ground. You had all of the elements, as you have already stated, to make the call. At that point, there is no need for anything else. Tell the coach you had everything, no need for any further input from anyone, it is a judgment call and in your judgment there was clearly a tag and an out, and then move on. No further discussion.

That would have prevented the "second" argument with the coach.

Now, I am assuming the coach said that about you being "an idiot" loud enough for others to hear, ergo was showing you up. He is gone. Period. He begged you, by making this comment, to leave the game. Honor his wish and send him.

Lastly, why is the UIC at a state tournament not honoring ASA's rules for championship play??? If that is the case, I would happily allow him to have one less umpire for the remainder of the tournament.

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by outathm

... snap ...

Now, normally I would have ejected him at this point. I say normally, but yesterday, I w ejected a coach and after the ejection, the UIC, came to the field and told me that he was allowing the coach to watch the game from the stands, as long as he didn't coach.

... snap ...

The biggest mistake you've made this game was to continue the game. I.m.h.o. it wasn't a mistake to confer with your partner. It showed that the two of you are a team! When the coach got over the line you've tossed him. Good thing. When the UIC crossed the line the only thing you can do is walk away from the field. Mistake.

A ejected player or coach has to leave. No UIC, Director or President can (nor may) change that. The UIC made you look like a fool, was out of line, shouldn't interfere during the game. The umpires on the diamond are in charge during the game, the UIC after and before.

I've had a similar UIC-interference last month. My partner and I applied a wrong base-award. We've followed the UIC in his ruling. Instead we had to to stick to our ruling and let the coaches file a protest. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN TO ME AGAIN. Not in our National competition, not during ESF tournaments. Coaches may file a protest, UIC's may not tell umpires what to do during the game. Afterwards he can tell me what I've done wrong, so I can learn from it...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alex

The biggest mistake you've made this game was to continue the game. I.m.h.o. it wasn't a mistake to confer with your partner. It showed that the two of you are a team!

No, and that was the point of the post. To go to your partner just because you were asked to go is a forfeiture of responsibility and authority. You just as well hand the coach your indicator because from that point forward you will receive the same request on a close call and you are just setting yourself and your team up for problems if you or your partner say no.

If there is any, ANY possibility you may not have seen or missed a portion of the play, an umpire should be more than willing to ask for help. Doing so for shits and giggles, thinking it will get the coach off your back, ias was done in the OP, does not always appease anyone.

When the coach got over the line you've tossed him. Good thing. When the UIC crossed the line the only thing you can do is walk away from the field. Mistake.

A ejected player or coach has to leave. No UIC, Director or President can (nor may) change that. The UIC made you look like a fool, was out of line, shouldn't interfere during the game. The umpires on the diamond are in charge during the game, the UIC after and before.

The UIC is out of line and I would have a serious time working for him again. Would I continue the tournament? Probably. What would I do every time someone had a question? Point him toward the UIC since apparently s/he is calling my game for me.

I've had a similar UIC-interference last month. My partner and I applied a wrong base-award. We've followed the UIC in his ruling. Instead we had to to stick to our ruling and let the coaches file a protest. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN TO ME AGAIN. Not in our National competition, not during ESF tournaments. Coaches may file a protest, UIC's may not tell umpires what to do during the game. Afterwards he can tell me what I've done wrong, so I can learn from it...

In many championship play tournaments (ASA) there is a UIC on site. There is usually nothing to file, simply tell the umpire you are playing the game under protest and let the UIC rule immediately. Unfortunately, in some larger tournaments where a UIC may not be readily available, the protest is accepted, noted and ruled on at a later time. Personally, and the previous has always been my experience, I'd rather the UIC get involved immediately while all parties are available with a fresh memory.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alex

The biggest mistake you've made this game was to continue the game. I.m.h.o. it wasn't a mistake to confer with your partner. It showed that the two of you are a team! When the coach got over the line you've tossed him. Good thing. When the UIC crossed the line the only thing you can do is walk away from the field. Mistake.

A ejected player or coach has to leave. No UIC, Director or President can (nor may) change that. The UIC made you look like a fool, was out of line, shouldn't interfere during the game. The umpires on the diamond are in charge during the game, the UIC after and before.

I've had a similar UIC-interference last month. My partner and I applied a wrong base-award. We've followed the UIC in his ruling. Instead we had to to stick to our ruling and let the coaches file a protest. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN TO ME AGAIN. Not in our National competition, not during ESF tournaments. Coaches may file a protest, UIC's may not tell umpires what to do during the game. Afterwards he can tell me what I've done wrong, so I can learn from it...

Hang on a minute, Sander.
When You are able to answer the coach with something to the effect of "Coach, I was in the proper position and I saw all the elements of the play." - it's wrong to ask your partner for help.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by outathm

I told him that I had gone for help, when help was not necessary, the conversation was done. AS he was walking back into his dug out he pointed back and said "That guy is an idiot".

Now, normally I would have ejected him at this point. I say normally, but yesterday, I w ejected a coach and after the ejection, the UIC, came to the field and told me that he was allowing the coach to watch the game from the stands, as long as he didn't coach.

Let my horrible mistake be a lesson to us all, when you have the play and do not need help, do not go for help to make a coach happy.

You're horrible mistake was in not ejecting the coach for saying the part highlighted in red. The crap that the UIC pulled on you with your earlier EJ notwithstanding, that comment requires an ejection, no ifs ,ands, or buts about it.

[outathm]

As I stated in the OP and int the Title I knew I was appeasing the coach when the question was asked of my partner. I also knew that my partner was going to be little or no help, since this was game 8 on the weekend with the partner and history tells me what to expect.

I did tell the coach that I had all of the information to make the call. I 'APPEASED' the coach.

I also know that this coach was asking to be ejected and I should have ejected him. I also knew that ejection was not going to do anything except move the coach 20 feet to his right from the dugout into the stands.

As to what Someone else said. I am of the same mindset. I finished the tournament, but am having some serious second thoughts about working this coming weekend for the same Letter Group and UIC.

[MD Longhorn]

You've already been told going for help when you don't need to is not a great idea. So I won't pile on there.

However, you say,

I asked my partner if he had anything different and he replied with 'I couldn't see a tag, the runner was in my way.'

I signaled the girl out again and then the fun began. The coach wanted to argue that my partner was saying there was no tag.

Sounds like coach overheard your conversation with partner. That should never happen. Not sure if you shouted across at partner something like, "Do you have anything!?" or for some reason had your conversation with partner near the coach... either way, that should NEVER happen.

You get together, you talk about whatever you need to talk about ("What are you getting for Millie's wedding?"), you disperse, and then you make the call (again in this case).

Heaven forbid, when you have this conversation so that coach can hear it ... this "appeasement" conversation, and partner (whom you already don't trust) pipes up with, "I thought she beat the throw". Now you have a true clusterfunk on your hands.

[outathm]

The conversation was quiet, on my end. It was not across the field, as I never do that except in a Pulled foot type of situation.

I also did the hand over the mouth thing. The coach was not close, my partner told him, "Sorry, I couldn't see a tag", after he told me.

I went for help because, at this point, I was done with this tournament. The number of things that were wrong with this tournament on the Umpire end would take ten threads.

I can promise everyone on this board, and those that are here that have worked with me will concur, I do not go for help just to ask, I will NEVER do this again.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by outathm

The conversation was quiet, on my end. It was not across the field, as I never do that except in a Pulled foot type of situation.

I also did the hand over the mouth thing. The coach was not close, my partner told him, "Sorry, I couldn't see a tag", after he told me.

I went for help because, at this point, I was done with this tournament. The number of things that were wrong with this tournament on the Umpire end would take ten threads.

I can promise everyone on this board, and those that are here that have worked with me will concur, I do not go for help just to ask, I will NEVER do this again.

FWIW, it is very important to ask the question the right way, since by going to your partner you are "admitting that you might have gotten it wrong" (I know you weren't, but that's what everyone is seeing).

I think the better way to handle the conversation with your partner would be to say, "I saw a tag, did you see her MISS the tag"?

That way instead of him saying " 'I couldn't see a tag," (which was all the coach wanted to hear - he never payed attention to "the runner was in the way" " your partner's answer would have to be "I didn't see her miss the tag".

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

FWIW, it is very important to ask the question the right way, since by going to your partner you are "admitting that you might have gotten it wrong" (I know you weren't, but that's what everyone is seeing).

I think the better way to handle the conversation with your partner would be to say, "I saw a tag, did you see her MISS the tag"?

That way instead of him saying " 'I couldn't see a tag," (which was all the coach wanted to hear - he never payed attention to "the runner was in the way" " your partner's answer would have to be "I didn't see her miss the tag".

Agree, as specific as possible.
"Did you see (the opposite of the call)?";
maybe even with a reminder to your partner about quietness.

[outathm]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

FWIW, it is very important to ask the question the right way, since by going to your partner you are "admitting that you might have gotten it wrong" (I know you weren't, but that's what everyone is seeing).

I think the better way to handle the conversation with your partner would be to say, "I saw a tag, did you see her MISS the tag"?

That way instead of him saying " 'I couldn't see a tag," (which was all the coach wanted to hear - he never payed attention to "the runner was in the way" " your partner's answer would have to be "I didn't see her miss the tag".

Or, the best way to handle it is to stand my ground, and not go to my partner on a play that I needed no help.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by outathm

or, the best way to handle it is to stand my ground, and not go to my partner on a play that i needed no help.

+1

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by outathm

Or, the best way to handle it is to stand my ground, and not go to my partner on a play that I needed no help.

I certainly don't disagree with that, I was just offering the advice should one decide to go to their partner for any reason.

[tcannizzo]

Agree with "standing ground because had all elements of play".
Game Management: So as not to appear to being an egotistical butt, I have said, "Coach, there are certain things I can go for help on, and certain things that I can't. This one is one that I can't".