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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 11, 2013, 12:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Dead ball. R2 is out for leaving early on the pitch. Game is over
Where did that one come from?
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 11, 2013, 01:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Not if R2 has already scored.
But has R2 already scored? Is a runner allowed to score ahead of a preceding runner?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 11, 2013, 02:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celebur View Post
But has R2 already scored? Is a runner allowed to score ahead of a preceding runner?
I grant this scenario is odd. TWP even. However, based on the rules I read, I see nothing preventing it. Do you?

Given that this would never really happen, and if it did, most umpires would likely "sell" some call that coaches would believe. But if it did, as odd as it sounds, I believe we have 2 runs here.

R2 did not pass anyone - no out there.
R2 scores, so no longer a force on R1.
R1 scores - she had to be tagged for her to be out.

2 runs - and run to your car.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 11, 2013, 02:20pm
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Please explain how a force can be taken off, when R2 has not been put out?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 11, 2013, 02:31pm
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Originally Posted by okla21fan View Post
Please explain how a force can be taken off, when R2 has not been put out?
Conceptually...
A force exists because the existence of a BR causes other runners to vacate their base and try to achieve the next one. If a runner is not forced to advance because of the existence of runners behind them having to take their bases, then they are not forced.

It's exactly the same as when a succeeding runner is put out. Example: Bases loaded, R2 is put out before reaching 3rd ... obviously R1 is no longer forced... it's common sense - she no longer has someone who must achieve the base behind her. Why would one be different than the other?
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 11, 2013, 02:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Conceptually...
A force exists because the existence of a BR causes other runners to vacate their base and try to achieve the next one. If a runner is not forced to advance because of the existence of runners behind them having to take their bases, then they are not forced.

It's exactly the same as when a succeeding runner is put out. Example: Bases loaded, R2 is put out before reaching 3rd ... obviously R1 is no longer forced... it's common sense - she no longer has someone who must achieve the base behind her. Why would one be different than the other?
because one fits the definition for removing the force on a runner (preceding runner being put out). the other does not. (and not exactly the same)

R1 is still forced to advance only we can show a citation. (and from the OP, the third out was still a result of a force out, and no runs can score.... no matter what the timing is when they scored)
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
R2 didn't leave early, even if you, in retrospect, wished that she did.

Not if R2 has already scored.
The OP stated left with the pitch. Runners cannot leave until the ball reaches the plate.

I stand by my call.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 11, 2013, 07:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
The OP stated left with the pitch. Runners cannot leave until the ball reaches the plate.

I stand by my call.
I assumed fast pitch, apparently so did others.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
I assumed fast pitch, apparently so did others.
You did WHAT?!?!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 12, 2013, 03:18am
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Runs must be scored in the correct order. A trailing runner cannot score prior to the lead runner.

That is my story and I am sticking to it.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 12, 2013, 07:55am
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Originally Posted by Gulf Coast Blue View Post
Runs must be scored in the correct order. A trailing runner cannot score prior to the lead runner.

That is my story and I am sticking to it.
Rule cite?
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 12, 2013, 10:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Rule cite?
C'mon, he said it was a story. Do you ask Sleeping Beauty the name of the matchmaking service that sent over Prince Charming?
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 12, 2013, 01:39pm
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I posed a similar question to a National Staff Member,

You cannot get the runner for passing another runner as that can only be called if the entire body is past the runner. Didn't happen here...I believe you score both runs.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Bottom of the 7th, Visitors up by 1. Bases loaded, 2 outs, full count. R2 and R3 are off on the pitch, R1 from third taking a regular lead. The ball is hit to shallow left who has a cannon arm. F7 fires home.

R2 and R1 arrive near the plate almost simultaneously, R2 sprinting, R1 jogging, unaware the ball is coming. R2 slides and touches plate just before F2 catches the ball and steps on the plate, which happens just before R1 touches the plate. As R2 is sliding, her head is behind R1's feet.

Ruling? Who wins, if anyone?
If R2 is not out for passing R1 because her entire body has not passed R1, I have R1 forced at the plate for the third out, visitors win. No run is scored as R1 was forced at HP.

MD Longhorn, you really found a LARGE can of worms.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Rule cite?
ASA 10-1
NFHS 10-2-3g
NCAA 15.2

Seriously, there's no way in hell I'm allowing R1 to score AFTER R2 has touched the plate. I fully accept the definition of passing a runner, but that should not apply when it comes to touching home plate.

Home plate is treated differently with respect to runners touching it than other bases. If R1 passes but fails to touch any other base, and then R2 touches it, R1 still has the opportunity to correct the miss by having R2 reverse track (and touch again) that base, and then R1 touches it. The same is not true at home plate.

You can't have it both ways here. Either you recognize that in this unusual circumstance R2 passed R1, so that R2 is out, or R2 didn't pass R1, which means R1 is still forced at home and is out.
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