Illegal pitch or no pitch.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

True... but that's the umpire's job. I think it's clear the majority here are saying that if in doubt - it's an IP. It's definitely not both or neither, and the solution the umpires on the field actually came up with is the only possible wrong solution here.

Saying they couldn't figure out what happened first is the equivalent of trying to call a tie on a play at first base. It's their JOB to decide which happened first. Sometimes you just have to umpire.

Completely agree with you. There have been times where my partner and I could not definitively decide what actually happened on a play. But we always resolve it by making a rulebook decision, not come up with a made-up compromise that essentially benefits both teams.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

One thing to consider on this issue. This was my first game back umpiring in about 8 years, after only working a few games before.

I was just wondering how it should be handled. Now, I would have called the IP and would not be as timid as to let the BU dictate what happened. I have worked several sports with that person, and I can't say it has been much fun in any sport.

Cool. And we ALL love working with "that guy". I think you got your answer --- probably IP and ignore the LE; although if the LE was obviously first you'd go with that. Just not neither next time.

[CecilOne]

I (a stubborn person) am still not convinced that we can say the IP caused the runner to leave early, when the runner left during the pitching motion.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I (a stubborn person) am still not convinced that we can say the IP caused the runner to leave early, when the runner left during the pitching motion.

When the IP is not releasing the ball when it appears you are going to (as in the OP) ... then the IP DEFINITELY caused the runner to leave early ... had the pitcher not IP'd, the runner would not have LE'd.

(IF the IP was something else... say, a 24" violation, and the runner left before the pitch - you would have LE, dead ball, no IP (as the ball was dead before the violation)).

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

When the IP is not releasing the ball when it appears you are going to (as in the OP) ... then the IP DEFINITELY caused the runner to leave early ... had the pitcher not IP'd, the runner would not have LE'd.

(IF the IP was something else... say, a 24" violation, and the runner left before the pitch - you would have LE, dead ball, no IP (as the ball was dead before the violation)).

In this case, I felt it was very close to the time the pitcher would have released the pitch.

I actually had this situation in a MS game last year, as a single umpire. In that case, the pitcher stumbled and failed to release the ball. No IP was called however because as the pitcher stumbled I saw that the runner on second was about 5 strides off second base. That one was obvious that the runner left early, and that was penalized, so the IP never happened. When I made the call, the head coach just smiled at me because he knew it was the right call. Unfortunately those MS are not much better than slow pitch games on a rough poor maintained MS field.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I actually had this situation in a MS game last year, as a single umpire. In that case, the pitcher stumbled and failed to release the ball. No IP was called however because as the pitcher stumbled I saw that the runner on second was about 5 strides off second base. That one was obvious that the runner left early...

In that case where the runner clearly left early, you should have called No Pitch well before the pitcher stumbled.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Manny A

In that case where the runner clearly left early, you should have called No Pitch well before the pitcher stumbled.

One thing I have learned to do it wait until the pitcher finishes their delivery before I come up and call anything. Last season I was the base umpire in a situation where the plate umpire called a no pitch (ball from another field came onto our field). The pitcher was in the middle of her motion and tried stopping. Unfortunately she tried stopping her motion midway through and did something to her arm. She ended up missing a few weeks of the season with an arm injury.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

One thing I have learned to do it wait until the pitcher finishes their delivery before I come up and call anything. Last season I was the base umpire in a situation where the plate umpire called a no pitch (ball from another field came onto our field). The pitcher was in the middle of her motion and tried stopping. Unfortunately she tried stopping her motion midway through and did something to her arm. She ended up missing a few weeks of the season with an arm injury.

I agree with you on a situation like that. Had a D3 game a while back where partner in D gave a half-hearted "no-pitch" (I didn't hear him) call when he saw a beach ball fall into foul ground in deep right field... He did this as the pitcher was about to release - the pitch got by and a run scored. Who knows whether his call affected the pitcher --- but that run that we had to take off the board was the only runner to cross the plate for either side until the 14th inning. Needless to say, he bought the beer that night.

(OTOH ... on a No Pitch caused by action on the field, like a runner leaving early, it really should be called immediately - or you could open a whole different can of worms if the ball is put in play and you try to kill it then).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

One thing I have learned to do it wait until the pitcher finishes their delivery before I come up and call anything. Last season I was the base umpire in a situation where the plate umpire called a no pitch (ball from another field came onto our field). The pitcher was in the middle of her motion and tried stopping. Unfortunately she tried stopping her motion midway through and did something to her arm. She ended up missing a few weeks of the season with an arm injury.

And that is the fault of her coaches, not the umpire doing his/her job.

EVEN WHEN I WAS PLAYING YOUTH BASEBALL IN THE LATE 50's, the pitcher was told to NEVER stop once you start. The pitchers were told to ALWAYS, WITHOUT FAIL complete the motion. The coaches would even screw around with them in practice to see if they would stop. If they did, everyone got a good laugh while they did a couple laps around the field.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And that is the fault of her coaches, not the umpire doing his/her job.

EVEN WHEN I WAS PLAYING YOUTH BASEBALL IN THE LATE 50's, the pitcher was told to NEVER stop once you start. The pitchers were told to ALWAYS, WITHOUT FAIL complete the motion. The coaches would even screw around with them in practice to see if they would stop. If they did, everyone got a good laugh while they did a couple laps around the field.

I agree. It's too bad the pitcher hurt herself, but that's not the umpire's fault. The rule calls for an immediate "No Pitch" call the moment the runner leaves the base early.

We are not required to hesitate and let the pitcher deliver the pitch, and then sort things out afterward. Heck, by allowing the pitch, you could open the door to other preventable injuries, such as a HBP, a batted ball off the batter's leg, etc. etc.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I agree. It's too bad the pitcher hurt herself, but that's not the umpire's fault. The rule calls for an immediate "No Pitch" call the moment the runner leaves the base early.

We are not required to hesitate and let the pitcher deliver the pitch, and then sort things out afterward. Heck, by allowing the pitch, you could open the door to other preventable injuries, such as a HBP, a batted ball off the batter's leg, etc. etc.

I would think it quite rare that the time it takes for a pitcher to complete a delivery (quite short once started), would actually be long enough for the umpire to see the violation, make the call, the pitcher hear it and have time to think, "hell, I better stop my motion".

You are right, there is no requirement for you to hesitate. However, there is no requirement that you blurt this out in .xx seconds to earn a bonus for quick calls. So what if the pitch goes? No matter what happens, it is as you pointed out, a "no pitch", therefore whatever subsequent action there was is simply negated and we reset and move on from that point.

No big deal. There are way too many umpires running around the field, screaming and waving their arms acting as if play doesn't come to an immediate halt, the field will explode.

Relax. Make your calls. You don't get paid extra for being quick.