do not pitch/"time"/illegal pitch

[Little Jimmy]

I was doing a community college game today (NCAA rules) when a few incidents of illegal pitching and related issues came up. I'm trying different sources to find an answer and thought I'd post. I'm plate. We have a pitcher who wanted to quick pitch as soon as the batter stepped a foot in the batters box. I learned at the very beginning of the game that I had to keep my hand up with the do not pitch signal until the batter was set and looked at the pitcher. This is where my partner and I had a difference of opinion.

Most of the time as I held one hand up, allowing the batter to get set, the pitcher stood on the plate with hands seperated. When I lowered my hand she would bring her hands together and pitch almost immediately. Although she was still quick I felt that when this happened that she was within the rules. My partner felt differently and called a few illegal pitches.

His contention was that as I gave the one handed do not pitch signal that this signal meant "time" and that when I lowered my hand the pitcher had to keep her hands seperated a little longer, simulate taking a signal, and then pitch. I felt that my one handed hold up play signal was not "time" and that as she stood, hands seperated, during my do not pitch signal that she was indeed taking the signal. She certainly wanted to pitch as soon as I lowered my hand but I felt she was within the rules.

I'm currently looking in various sources for a definitive answer. The CCA umpire manual shows 2 different umpire signals: one for time out/ suspension of play and another for do not pitch. Earlier in the manual (page 130) there is a mention of when to use the "do not pitch " signal. ASA umpire manual also states the two signals/actions as seperate entities. So far that's the only references I can find. Any ideas how you would handled my situation? Any ruleset would be a good start.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

I was doing a community college game today (NCAA rules) when a few incidents of illegal pitching and related issues came up. I'm trying different sources to find an answer and thought I'd post. I'm plate. We have a pitcher who wanted to quick pitch as soon as the batter stepped a foot in the batters box. I learned at the very beginning of the game that I had to keep my hand up with the do not pitch signal until the batter was set and looked at the pitcher. This is where my partner and I had a difference of opinion.

Most of the time as I held one hand up, allowing the batter to get set, the pitcher stood on the plate with hands seperated. When I lowered my hand she would bring her hands together and pitch almost immediately. Although she was still quick I felt that when this happened that she was within the rules. My partner felt differently and called a few illegal pitches.

His contention was that as I gave the one handed do not pitch signal that this signal meant "time" and that when I lowered my hand the pitcher had to keep her hands seperated a little longer, simulate taking a signal, and then pitch. I felt that my one handed hold up play signal was not "time" and that as she stood, hands seperated, during my do not pitch signal that she was indeed taking the signal. She certainly wanted to pitch as soon as I lowered my hand but I felt she was within the rules.

I'm currently looking in various sources for a definitive answer. The CCA umpire manual shows 2 different umpire signals: one for time out/ suspension of play and another for do not pitch. Earlier in the manual (page 130) there is a mention of when to use the "do not pitch " signal. ASA umpire manual also states the two signals/actions as seperate entities. So far that's the only references I can find. Any ideas how you would handled my situation? Any ruleset would be a good start.

I know ASA has no such requirement, and I don't think NCAA does either, but where does it say the pitcher must take the signal AFTER directed to continue/play?

[Little Jimmy]

So Irish, do you interpret a "do not pitch" signal in the same way as a "time" signal? That's the crux of the biscuit for me.

[topper]

You are correct LJ, they are different signals with different meanings. Following your partner's reasoning, the pitcher can make any illegal move other than putting a foreign substance on the ball and not be called for it because, in his mind, your "do not pitch" signal is a complete suspension of play. "Do not pitch" means simply that.

And, as I'm sure you know, a quick pitch is not an illegal pitch provided the pitcher's preliminary requirements are met.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by topper

You are correct LJ, they are different signals with different meanings. Following your partner's reasoning, the pitcher make any illegal move other than putting a foreign substance on the ball and not be called for it because, in his mind, your "do not pitch" signal is a complete suspension of play. "Do not pitch" means simply that.

And, as I'm sure you know, a quick pitch is not an illegal pitch provided the pitcher's preliminary requirements are met.

Topper....excellent point. And just to add to your response...a quick pitch is ruled to be "No Pitch."
NCAA 10.9
ASA 6.10 (c)

LJ....Your partner was wrong on this.
Based on your OP, IMO I feel you were handling the sitch correctly from your end as the PU.
Question....did you and your BU cover IP's in your pre-game?

[Little Jimmy]

My partner and I have worked together numerous times and I consider him to be one of the top umps I go on the field with. We did not cover this specific situation, but afterwards he said he was calling the hands issue because he thought I was missing something.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

My partner and I have worked together numerous times and I consider him to be one of the top umps I go on the field with. We did not cover this specific situation, but afterwards he said he was calling the hands issue because he thought I was missing something.

LJ...ok I got that. Now my next questions (because I'm not 100% clear from your OP or this reply), are:

1) What did he think it was that you were missing with the hands?
2) What position was he in when he made the IP call?
3) How many times did he make this call?
4) At what point did he discuss with you "what he thought you were missing"?

[Little Jimmy]

My partner was in C each time. He made 3 illegal pitch calls from that positon (by the way, I made 2 other unrelated illegal calls at other times in the game. The girl simply didn't know the mechanics). Between innings he asked me if I was going to start calling the illegals, since the hand motions/timings are generally the plate's responsibility. I explained that I did not feel the same way he did and that I felt she was taking the sign when I was holding up the pitcher with a do not pitch signal. We agreed to disagree at that moment. Once again he felt that my do not pitch signal meant "time" and that the pitcher could not simulate taking a pitch when "time was granted.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Little Jimmy

So Irish, do you interpret a "do not pitch" signal in the same way as a "time" signal? That's the crux of the biscuit for me.

No, I don't.

[okla21fan]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, I don't.

Just for clarification sake, While you are holding up the pitcher with the 'do not pitch' signal can the following take place? (ASA rule set)

1) The pitcher place both feet on the rubber, with hands separated, and then bring the hand together. (meaning, once you declare 'ready' , would the pitcher have to 'restart' the preliminary of the pitch or simply continue?)

2) while unlikely, could you have a LBR violation or base runner leaving a bag early prior to the pitch?

TIA

[CecilOne]

It seems to me that the pause for a sign or simulation is to protect the batter from a "quick pitch". As the batter often also relaxes or steps out on a "do not pitch" situation, the sign/simulation should take place after the "do not pitch" is over.
I don't see this as a time out or not issue, just a question of the rule intent.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

It seems to me that the pause for a sign or simulation is to protect the batter from a "quick pitch". As the batter often also relaxes or steps out on a "do not pitch" situation, the sign/simulation should take place after the "do not pitch" is over.
I don't see this as a time out or not issue, just a question of the rule intent.

JMO, but you are looking at it exactly opposite how I look at it. The only valid reason to hold up the pitcher with DNP is because the batter hasn't had a chance to get ready. If the batter doesn't choose to get ready while I'm holding up the pitcher, then after that, it isn't a "quick pitch", it is a stupid batter.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

JMO, but you are looking at it exactly opposite how I look at it. The only valid reason to hold up the pitcher with DNP is because the batter hasn't had a chance to get ready. If the batter doesn't choose to get ready while I'm holding up the pitcher, then after that, it isn't a "quick pitch", it is a stupid batter.

And I've seen that too, but believe the batter being ready (slowly or quickly) starts the whole sequence, else the required pause is meaningless.

[ronald]

my two cents.

you are the pu. the hands are your business. partner out of line.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by ronald

my two cents.

you are the pu. the hands are your business. partner out of line.

The CCA Manual agrees also (6.10 pg.92-93)