Interesting play as it was described

[LIUmp]

NYSSO rules (ASA) Rules, though I'd like to know if there's any difference with other rule sets.

R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st, 0 out. B3 bunts a soft line drive just over the pitcher toward F6. Pitcher attempts to catch, but it hits her glove and pops in the air where the F6 comes in and makes a shoestring catch.

No call on the catch is made, nor is a call on the ball hitting the ground.

F6 throws to 2nd, and then F4 throws to first. DC yells, "triple play!" R1 advances to 3rd, R2 advances to 2nd. No tag of any runners is made. No call is made at either base.

BU calls time and asks plate ump if F6 caught the ball. They get together and determine that F6 DID catch the ball, but also that, at the time the ball hit the pitcher's glove, both runners were on their base at that moment, but then left the bases as soon as the ball was tipped. They rule B3 out on the catch and the runners are safe at 2nd and third. 1 out.

I wasn't there, but my questions -

WHAT?

At the "instant" it hit the pitcher's glove, you mean to tell me that both umps, or at least one ump, SAW that the runners were touching their bases?

With no call being made, did this not cause some confusion for the defense/offense? Seems like one team made out quite well here.

Seems to me, and I only say this because one of the umpires involved is known for this, that this is a case of being an OOJ.

But maybe I'm wrong.

I know the rule, I am just asking about how the umpires handled this.

[Rich Ives]

What's NYSSO?

Even if the umpires saw the tip first and then looked and saw the runners on the base it would still mean the runners touched the base after the touch of the ball by F1.

Given it was a legal retouch, the runners legally advanced. Whether or not the ball was caught meant nothing. The defense should have known that it was legal and played it accordingly. They didn't.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

NYSSO rules (ASA) Rules, though I'd like to know if there's any difference with other rule sets.

R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st, 0 out. B3 bunts a soft line drive just over the pitcher toward F6. Pitcher attempts to catch, but it hits her glove and pops in the air where the F6 comes in and makes a shoestring catch.

No call on the catch is made, nor is a call on the ball hitting the ground.

Well, other than you cannot have a "bunt" line drive over the pitcher's head , where does you play say anything about the ball hitting the ground?

F6 throws to 2nd, and then F4 throws to first. DC yells, "triple play!" R1 advances to 3rd, R2 advances to 2nd. No tag of any runners is made. No call is made at either base.

BU calls time and asks plate ump if F6 caught the ball. They get together and determine that F6 DID catch the ball, but also that, at the time the ball hit the pitcher's glove, both runners were on their base at that moment, but then left the bases as soon as the ball was tipped. They rule B3 out on the catch and the runners are safe at 2nd and third. 1 out.

Okay, but lacking a call, the defense played the ball appropriately.

I wasn't there, but my questions -

WHAT?

At the "instant" it hit the pitcher's glove, you mean to tell me that both umps, or at least one ump, SAW that the runners were touching their bases?

Did they see them OFF the base? With the ball in the air, I can understand a runner holding/returning to the base. Either way, there is not going to be anymore than the out on the catch. Worst case scenario is that the runners are returned to their respective base at the time of the touch.

With no call being made, did this not cause some confusion for the defense/offense? Seems like one team made out quite well here.

Seems to me, and I only say this because one of the umpires involved is known for this, that this is a case of being an OOJ.

But maybe I'm wrong.

I know the rule, I am just asking about how the umpires handled this.

Let's just say, it could have been handled differently, but not necessarily wrong as we were not there to say it was wrong.

But based on your play, if I were asked to rule on the play, I would probably react as I posted earlier, call the out on the catch and return the runners to 1st & 2nd.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

At the "instant" it hit the pitcher's glove, you mean to tell me that both umps, or at least one ump, SAW that the runners were touching their bases?

Well, what else do you have to go with? I find it hard to believe as well, but it's their call.

Originally Posted by LIUmp

With no call being made, did this not cause some confusion for the defense/offense? Seems like one team made out quite well here.

I agree that a call should have been made immediately, and it's the PU's to make. Chances are, the BU (with R1 and R2 at second and first) could not see whether or not F6 made the catch, so he's not going to be able to offer much help.

Originally Posted by LIUmp

Seems to me, and I only say this because one of the umpires involved is known for this, that this is a case of being an OOJ.

What's that got to do with it? There were three things the umpires had to determine here--whether F1 first touched the ball, whether F6 made the catch, and whether the runners properly tagged up. From your description, the umpires made their determination. I don't see what additional rulings and interpretations came out of this that would be indicative of an OOJ.

Originally Posted by LIUmp

I know the rule, I am just asking about how the umpires handled this.

From your description, they didn't handle it well. A catch/no-catch call is a must here. Since one wasn't made initially, then perhaps the ASA rule (I don't have a book handy, so I can't look it up) on an umpire's mistake putting a team at a disadvantage could be invoked. The reasonable compromise would be to call B3 out, and return R1 and R2.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

return the runners to 1st & 2nd.

why? Jeopardy rule ? What did I miss?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

why? Jeopardy rule ? What did I miss?

If the umpire makes the call, the D doesn't turn what they believed to be a triple play. If the umpire make the call, the runners don't leave their respective bases.

Yes, the umpires' reversal, and it is a reversal since no out call would constitute a safe ruling, placed everyone in jeopardy.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If the umpire makes the call, the D doesn't turn what they believed to be a triple play. If the umpire make the call, the runners don't leave their respective bases.

Yes, the umpires' reversal, and it is a reversal since no out call would constitute a safe ruling, placed everyone in jeopardy.

The runners left their base on the touch. They were most likely well on their way to the next base at the time it was actually caught. There is only a call upon the catch, so I cannot see where there's any reason to send the runners back.

THE KEY POINT - as runners can legally go on first touch it does not matter whether the ball was caught or not. They are legally advancing and there is no re-touch appeal possible.

The appropriate play for the defense was to know the runners could go on first touch. They blew it. Too bad.

[ASA/NYSSOBLUE]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

What's NYSSO?

Even if the umpires saw the tip first and then looked and saw the runners on the base it would still mean the runners touched the base after the touch of the ball by F1.

Given it was a legal retouch, the runners legally advanced. Whether or not the ball was caught meant nothing. The defense should have known that it was legal and played it accordingly. They didn't.

NYSSO - New York State Softball Officials ASA rules - but different mechanics on a lot of things. If you ever read Jay Miner's REFEREE column, you will encounter a lot of them, as he is our Rules/Mechanics Interpreter.

[LIUmp]

To clarify I heard from 3 people who were there who said there was no way either umpire saw both runners. Runners were off the base hard on pitch, had to hold when it was popped up, and were retreating or frozen on touch and also on catch.
Then, I met up with the BU on this play, who is known for being that type of umpire to show what he knows, and that it's more than everyone else. He mentioned how he SAW both runners on the base "at first touch". I thought "how impressive, I wouldn't have immediately seen both of them on the base 'at first touch', maybe one but not both."

So I pressed him on this. "You saw both runners at the very moment it hit the pitcher's glove?"
"well, I saw the runner at second out of the corner of my eye at the very second it hit the pitcher's glove. I wasn't sure if she caught the ball, so I asked my plate ump. He thinks she caught it; he's almost positive she did. The plate ump didn't know the rule about the "first touch" and he wasn't sure about where either runner was at the moment. So I told him I'll explain it to the coaches."

An example of his "officiating": I was PU, he was BU. Batter hits base hit down right field line, just fair. He hesitated on going out, then changed his mind, turned around and tried to cut in the infield and tripped over the lip of the grass on the infield, just in front of where the F4 was. I was PU and covered him as the throw from right field came into 2nd since he was laying flat on his back. Batter was standing on 2nd with a double as the throw came in. He gets up, out of breath, and says " TIME!!! I have obstruction! The first baseman obstructed the runner rounding first, she will get third!" Another example, he called out and ejected a 12U player for her slide at home, saying her leg was "too straight" to be a legal slide. This happened in the 7th inning of a tie game at Nationals. His pregame speech includes the warning, "captains, tell your batters, I like to call strikes. Come up swinging the bat. Also, if you think I'm rushing you, you're right."

I just found this story to be all too common for him to have....I can go 15 years and not get anything like this.

Something about the whole play didn't sit right. So I figured I'd ask here.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

The runners left their base on the touch. They were most likely well on their way to the next base at the time it was actually caught. There is only a call upon the catch, so I cannot see where there's any reason to send the runners back.

THE KEY POINT - as runners can legally go on first touch it does not matter whether the ball was caught or not. They are legally advancing and there is no re-touch appeal possible.

The appropriate play for the defense was to know the runners could go on first touch. They blew it. Too bad.

I would agree with you if this were a travel team. But we're talking NY state varsity softball. I'll ASSURE you, virtually NO coach, and many umpires, don't know that portion of the rule here in this state in school ball. So for the runners to know this is HIGHLY doubtful.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

To clarify I heard from 3 people who were there who said there was no way either umpire saw both runners. .

I don't know from an umpire on the field perspective but from a dugout on a 60' field it isn't that hard.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by LIUmp

I would agree with you if this were a travel team. But we're talking NY state varsity softball. I'll ASSURE you, virtually NO coach, and many umpires, don't know that portion of the rule here in this state in school ball. So for the runners to know this is HIGHLY doubtful.

Maybe you have undereducated people in your part of the state but around where I live even 12U coaches and players know you can go on first touch.

NY Schools play by ASA rules. Never heard of NYSSO rules. The governing body is the NYSPHSAA.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If the umpire makes the call, the D doesn't turn what they believed to be a triple play. If the umpire make the call, the runners don't leave their respective bases.

Yes, the umpires' reversal, and it is a reversal since no out call would constitute a safe ruling, placed everyone in jeopardy.

This was my thinking as well. Even though it likely would not have much mattered, the defense didn't turn what they were thinking was a triple play. When the defense threw it to second for the appeal, no call was made, because the umpires didn't know if the ball was caught or not. To make this call after the fact and allow the runners to advance in the confusion is to me enforcing a rule that would, by enforcement, benefit one team (offense). I came here to see if I was accurate in my thinking or if I'm way off base.

My instinct is that I would have called it this way as well. Batter out, runners return due to the confusion from the non call. But I would have had to be there to see this happen to really know what happened, and I don't know what would be appropriate here. That's why I posed the question.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Maybe you have undereducated people in your part of the state but around where I live even 12U coaches and players know you can go on first touch.

NY Schools play by ASA rules. Never heard of NYSSO rules. The governing body is the NYSPHSAA.

We play under ASA rules with some modifications that are specific to our state. NYSPHSAA is the NY State Public High School Athletic Association. This is the state high school athletic governing body. Softball falls under NYSSO - NY state softball officials organization.

I didn't make the rule, bro. That's insignificant anyway.

[LIUmp]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Maybe you have undereducated people in your part of the state but around where I live even 12U coaches and players know you can go on first touch.

NY Schools play by ASA rules. Never heard of NYSSO rules. The governing body is the NYSPHSAA.

Undereducated? The coaches will yell (and some umpires will call) a strike if the batter does NOT pull her bat back when she holds her bat out for a bunt. They think that's the rule.

Undereducated is on the money.