Verifying - NFHS / ASA

[Chess Ref]

I haven't been umping that much the last couple of years and now have the time again.

So I'm in "review mode". Have patience if my questions seem to be pretty basic ones.

R1 on 2b. Batter hits a shot towards F1. Ball deflects off of F1's glove and goes towards F6. R1,who is in front of F6, gets hit with the ball. There was no intention of running into the ball, it happened really quick, and R1 had no chance of getting out of the way.

For both NFHS and ASA my understanding is no call, play on.

Does this seem the correct ruling?

[SNIPERBBB]

Does F6 have a chance at the ball had it not hit R1?

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Does F6 have a chance at the ball had it not hit R1?

My thinking, based on 8-4-1f, was that F6 having a play on the ball didn't matter.

[RKBUmp]

Dont have all the rules citations at the moment, but FED is a little different in that they do not consider a deflected ball off the pitcher to be an initial play. If another player still has a chance to make a play after a ball being deflected by the pitcher, it is still considered to be an initial play.

But, there is also a rules citation in FED that if the ball is deflected and the runner did not have a chance to avoid the ball, they are not out.

[DaveASA/FED]

Yeah I dont' have to references with me right now either but in FED there is the initial play definition that can make this very play interference. Which bothers me as runner can't be expected to know whats going to happen on a deflected ball!! But this falls into the "life is NOT fair" and the I dont' get to make the rules I just have to enforce them!!

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

Yeah I dont' have to references with me right now either but in FED there is the initial play definition that can make this very play interference. Which bothers me as runner can't be expected to know whats going to happen on a deflected ball!! But this falls into the "life is NOT fair" and the I dont' get to make the rules I just have to enforce them!!

I thought the initial play ruling deals with a runner hindering a fielder, not a runner being hit with the batted ball. So why would this be INT in FED?

[MNBlue]

8-8-6 A runner is NOT out:

ART. 6 . . . A runner is hit with a fair batted ball after it touches, or is touched by, any fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner could not avoid contact with the ball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

8-8-6 A runner is NOT out:

ART. 6 . . . A runner is hit with a fair batted ball after it touches, or is touched by, any fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner could not avoid contact with the ball.

ASA 8.8.F is the same.

[DaveASA/FED]

8-6-10
ART. 10 . . . The runner interferes:

a. with a fielder attempting to make the initial play on a fair batted ball (2-47).

2-47-3
ART. 3 . . .Initial Play. A fielder is considered to be making an initial play on a fair batted ball when she:

a. Has a reasonable chance to gain control of a ground ball that no other fielder (except the pitcher) has touched. (8-8-6)

b. Has a reasonable chance to catch the ball in flight or catch the ball in flight after it touches another fielder.

c. Fails to gain control of the batted ball and is within a step and a reach (in any direction) of the spot of the initial contact.

By 8-6-10 if you judge the runner being contacted with the ball interferred with the fielders opportunity to make an initial play on the ball then you have INT and the runner is out.

By 2-47-3a the play described is still considered an initial play on the ball, that is as long as the umpire judges the fielder has a resonable change to gain control of that batted ball.

So as 8-8-6 says your not out for just being hit by the ball, but you could be out if that causes interference with a fielder making an initial play on the ball.

[BretMan]

I always understood it to be like this:

- In ASA, a runner is not out if unavoidably hit by a deflected batted ball.

- In ASA, a runner is not out if she interferes with a fielder attempting to field a deflected ball, unless she interferes intentionally.

- In NFHS, a runner is not out if unavoidably hit by a deflected batted ball.

- In NFHS, a runner IS out if she inteferes with a fielder making a play on a deflected batted ball. (Note that this refers to interference with the fielder, not the ball.

The last one is where ASA and NFHS differ. The ASA rule takes into consideration that, on a deflected ball, a fielder may suddenly change directions in a direction not predictable to the runner. They cut the runner some slack in she unavoidably contacts that fielder.

NFHS does not extend that same courtesy to a runner. Why not? Beats me. They just don't. Personally, I prefer the ASA rule for this.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

So as 8-8-6 says your not out for just being hit by the ball, but you could be out if that causes interference with a fielder making an initial play on the ball.

Dave, I believe when it comes to interfering with a fielder making an initial play on a ball deflected by F1, the intent is to penalize a runner when she does something like bumps into that fielder.

Suppose with a runner at first, the batter hits a sharp ground ball up the middle, causing F4 to initially move to her right to field it. F1 deflects the ball and it heads back towards where F4 was originally positioned, so F4 stops on her tracks and starts moving back to field the ball. F4 is about ten feet behind the baseline from first to second as she moves parallel to that line. The runner gets hit by that deflected ball, and F4 is nowhere near that runner when it happens.

No way is that going to be considered hindering F4 while making an initial play. The onus is on the runner to avoid F4, not to avoid the deflected ball, and she shouldn't be penalized if she does just that.

I think you're stretching the definition of initial play to the point that it directly conflicts with the deflected ball rule.

[DaveASA/FED]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Dave, I believe when it comes to interfering with a fielder making an initial play on a ball deflected by F1, the intent is to penalize a runner when she does something like bumps into that fielder.

Suppose with a runner at first, the batter hits a sharp ground ball up the middle, causing F4 to initially move to her right to field it. F1 deflects the ball and it heads back towards where F4 was originally positioned, so F4 stops on her tracks and starts moving back to field the ball. F4 is about ten feet behind the baseline from first to second as she moves parallel to that line. The runner gets hit by that deflected ball, and F4 is nowhere near that runner when it happens.

No way is that going to be considered hindering F4 while making an initial play. The onus is on the runner to avoid F4, not to avoid the deflected ball, and she shouldn't be penalized if she does just that.

I think you're stretching the definition of initial play to the point that it directly conflicts with the deflected ball rule.

As you describe it there probably isn't interference. I think what I said, or at least I know what I meant is IF the runner gets hit with a batted ball (even if it is deflected by the pitcher) that a fielder is making an initial play on and by getting hit it interferes with that fielder making that initial play then the runner is out, by the rules I quoted. If the contact with the ball does not cause interference with a fielder making an initial play then they are not out.

In regards to "stretching" the initial play definition? I think I read it word for word. It specifically states if the ball is deflected by the pitcher but another fielder has a chance to gain contol of the ball that fielder is still making an initial play. No stretching, it's word for word.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by DaveASA/FED

As you describe it there probably isn't interference. I think what I said, or at least I know what I meant is IF the runner gets hit with a batted ball (even if it is deflected by the pitcher) that a fielder is making an initial play on and by getting hit it interferes with that fielder making that initial play then the runner is out, by the rules I quoted. If the contact with the ball does not cause interference with a fielder making an initial play then they are not out.

In regards to "stretching" the initial play definition? I think I read it word for word. It specifically states if the ball is deflected by the pitcher but another fielder has a chance to gain contol of the ball that fielder is still making an initial play. No stretching, it's word for word.

So, a few scenarios. In all of them the pitcher deflects the ball toward the shortstop while R1 goes from 2nd to 3rd. And the third baseman is not in a position to make a play.
In
A) The runner hits the ball while the shortstop who was playing deep waits for it a few feet behind
B) The runner hits the ball a just in front of the fielder but without contacting the fielder or otherwise impeding the fielder
C) The runner hits the fielder while the ball is out of reach of the SS
D) The runner hits the fielder while the ball is about to be fielded by the SS

As I understand it:
A) Not interference in ASA. Even though the shortstop would have gotten the ball, the shortstop wasn't interfered with the ball was and unintentionally interfering with the deflected ball is not interference. NFHS interference. The pitcher's touch does not count, so we have interference with the ball before it passes a fielder. (That last glosses over the details). I'm not sure how you feel about this one from reading what you've said.
B) Same as A. You have interference here as I understand it because you don't think the being hit exception applies in this way.
C) Obstruction ASA, more judgment required NFHS. In ASA, the deflection took away the fielders protection. In NFHS, the fielder can still be making an initial play on the ball (deflection doesn't count) so we have judge if the SS was the protected fielder or if the ball was clearly going to pass the shortstop
D) Obstruction ASA. Interference NFHS.