Help me understand the BU positioning on this play

[youngump]

R1 on 1st, B2 hits a liner to center. F8 fields it on a hop and throws to second catching R1 rounding too far. R1 starts to go back and then instead moves toward third. The rundown is on and PU comes up to get the third base end of it.

Here's what I did and why I think it's not right. So on the hit I button hooked in and cheated toward second. So at this point I'm probably about 10 feet in and just a little bit off the line between home and second. This felt good for the throw in and I think would have been a good place to adjust to the play at second if it had occurred and been close (by moving toward the 1B-2B line). Since it turned into a run down, I ended up moving to bracket the run by moving toward third and toward left field a little. R1 gets tagged toward 3rd and PU makes the call. At this point, I convinced myself I didn't like what I had done because at no point was I really aware of BR2 (who inexplicably did not go to second on this play). But if she had gone to second, I don't know that I would have been at all in good shape to make that call. So what should I have done.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

R1 on 1st, B2 hits a liner to center. F8 fields it on a hop and throws to second catching R1 rounding too far. R1 starts to go back and then instead moves toward third. The rundown is on and PU comes up to get the third base end of it.

Here's what I did and why I think it's not right. So on the hit I button hooked in and cheated toward second. So at this point I'm probably about 10 feet in and just a little bit off the line between home and second. This felt good for the throw in and I think would have been a good place to adjust to the play at second if it had occurred and been close (by moving toward the 1B-2B line). Since it turned into a run down, I ended up moving to bracket the run by moving toward third and toward left field a little. R1 gets tagged toward 3rd and PU makes the call. At this point, I convinced myself I didn't like what I had done because at no point was I really aware of BR2 (who inexplicably did not go to second on this play). But if she had gone to second, I don't know that I would have been at all in good shape to make that call. So what should I have done.

Sometimes on a rundown, we're screwed. Priority one is to not get in the way. Priority two is to get to where you can to see all possible plays. Those priorities don't often coincide. Don't beat yourself up if you stayed out of the way but couldn't get ideal position. (DO beat yourself up if you get in the way!!! )

I do wonder why you moved toward 3rd, at least after the first throw (you might move a bit toward 3rd if PU is caught unprepared or perhaps had a runner coming home and couldn't get to 3rd on the first throw there). You're already in a good spot as far as distance between 2nd and 3rd is concerned.

The only movement I'd try to do at this point is if the play moves enough toward third base that you can get past the runner and fielder(s) - to be OUTSIDE the play -- get there. Ideally, you want PU inside near 3rd and you outside near 2nd. Doesn't always happen. The added plus if you get outside is your visibility of BR in your peripheral vision and probably better position to make a call on that runner if necessary.

That said, if there was only 1 or maybe 2 throws toward 3rd, you might not have had the opportunity to get there.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by youngump

R1 on 1st, B2 hits a liner to center. F8 fields it on a hop and throws to second catching R1 rounding too far. R1 starts to go back and then instead moves toward third. The rundown is on and PU comes up to get the third base end of it. ... R1 gets tagged toward 3rd and PU makes the call.

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm a little rusty on responsibilities during rundowns. But isn't this the BU's call? He/she has (or should have) a better view of the tag on the runner's back.

As for your dilemma, you did what you should have done. I don't understand how you felt you weren't in a good position to see a tag play on a throw to second. You're basically mirroring the outside position you would be in for a straight steal of second, aren't you? Perhaps, as Mike mentioned, you didn't need to move closer to third.

[Andy]

I think the important thing to remember is that you have another runner to worry about and need to be aware of as well. In a two umpire system, you both can't focus strictly on the lead runner caught in the rundown.

As PU, I would come up to third in anticipation of a possible play there, then take the rundown allowing my BU partner to have the batter-runner. It's also possible that BU could stay in the neighborhood of second to be able to get that end of the rundown while staying aware of the BR.

Either way, the two of you have to communicate here and let each other know what you are doing.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm a little rusty on responsibilities during rundowns. But isn't this the BU's call? He/she has (or should have) a better view of the tag on the runner's back.

As for your dilemma, you did what you should have done. I don't understand how you felt you weren't in a good position to see a tag play on a throw to second. You're basically mirroring the outside position you would be in for a straight steal of second, aren't you? Perhaps, as Mike mentioned, you didn't need to move closer to third.

On a rundown, ANY rundown, if possible you want to bracket it - one umpire at each end, and ideally one inside, one outside. If PU can get to the play in the OP, he should. PU needs to communicate when he's got a side, so BU can stop covering both ends.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm a little rusty on responsibilities during rundowns. But isn't this the BU's call? He/she has (or should have) a better view of the tag on the runner's back.

By toward third I meant nearer to third than second, she was actually tagged from behind after trying to turn back to second and this one was obvious. But to be honest, responsibilities on a pickle are not something I'm great at and if she got tagged 5 feet from third from behind, I would have anticipated my partner making the call as well. Is that wrong?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by youngump

By toward third I meant nearer to third than second, she was actually tagged from behind after trying to turn back to second and this one was obvious. But to be honest, responsibilities on a pickle are not something I'm great at and if she got tagged 5 feet from third from behind, I would have anticipated my partner making the call as well. Is that wrong?

Well, let me ask this ... if you are working toward third but anticipate partner will have the call ... what are you there for?

If partner has that end, you don't need to also. Move to the other side (between SS and 2nd base) if you can and get your end... and as Andy said, you can then pay attention to the other runner.

You say you're not great at it. When you've got both ends, it's tough, and NO ONE can be great at it. Once partner is there, though, think bracket - one of you has each end, and being inside/outside lets you see obstruction and the like. If you're at a point in the rundown where partner is most likely to have a tag, you should be watching fielders. Too many umpires get caught watching the ball, including good ones - it's easy to do that.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by youngump

R1 on 1st, B2 hits a liner to center. F8 fields it on a hop and throws to second catching R1 rounding too far. R1 starts to go back and then instead moves toward third. The rundown is on and PU comes up to get the third base end of it.

Here's what I did and why I think it's not right. So on the hit I button hooked in and cheated toward second. So at this point I'm probably about 10 feet in and just a little bit off the line between home and second. This felt good for the throw in and I think would have been a good place to adjust to the play at second if it had occurred and been close (by moving toward the 1B-2B line). Since it turned into a run down, I ended up moving to bracket the run by moving toward third and toward left field a little. R1 gets tagged toward 3rd and PU makes the call. At this point, I convinced myself I didn't like what I had done because at no point was I really aware of BR2 (who inexplicably did not go to second on this play). But if she had gone to second, I don't know that I would have been at all in good shape to make that call. So what should I have done.

First question: if R1 is thrown out at 3rd without a run down, who's call is it? The correct answer is PU. My question to you then, why are you moving towards third at anytime during this play? Unless your partner doesn't cover his responsibilities (and then you can have a talk after the game).

Ok, so here is how I see this play: you move inside on the hit, and are prepared to take a throw at 2nd. You watch R1 round 2nd and move toward 3rd, you still have to be aware of R1 back into 2nd and BR now at 1st and/or 2nd. Where was the original throw? That is needed information in how to READ this play. Was the throw directly to 3rd or behind R1 into 2nd? I'll assume the throw was into 3rd and the rundown commences . . .

Now, as a general rule for all run downs - STOP! The best thing to do is NOTHING. Just don't move. It may be "ideal" to bracket, but you already have someone on both ends. You should have been in an adjusted called position at 2nd watching BR as R1 is now PU's responsibility. He is on one side, you are at 2nd on the other. Why move at all? Just get some distance and watch the play - tags, obstructions, etc. Even if BR decides to take 2nd after the out, you are in the calling position. If there is a throw back to first (good luck!), the position affords you to move parallel with the baseline and you can make the best call you can make.


Adjust when absolutely necessary. Even when you are by yourself, i.e. BU covering a rundown between 1st and 2nd, the best thing to do is just "don't move."

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

My question to you then, why are you moving towards third at anytime during this play? Unless your partner doesn't cover his responsibilities (and then you can have a talk after the game).

Well mostly because I felt I was a little too close to second, I didn't say I went to third I said I move toward third and toward left.

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Ok, so here is how I see this play: you move inside on the hit, and are prepared to take a throw at 2nd. You watch R1 round 2nd and move toward 3rd, you still have to be aware of R1 back into 2nd and BR now at 1st and/or 2nd. Where was the original throw? That is needed information in how to READ this play. Was the throw directly to 3rd or behind R1 into 2nd? I'll assume the throw was into 3rd and the rundown commences . . .

As I said, the throw came into second and I felt good about my position there, but the runner seeing the ball at second went the other way.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by youngump

At this point, I convinced myself I didn't like what I had done because at no point was I really aware of BR2 (who inexplicably did not go to second on this play). But if she had gone to second, I don't know that I would have been at all in good shape to make that call. So what should I have done.

Putting aside for the moment what you did or didn't do on this play, let me say this......

It's this type of post play/post game self analysis and questioning....asking yourself "could I have done this better"? This approach to your craft over time will take you from being a good umpire to an excellent umpire. An umpire who's thinking himself through the play as it's developing.

Nice job on your part.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

Well mostly because I felt I was a little too close to second, I didn't say I went to third I said I move toward third and toward left.

As I said, the throw came into second and I felt good about my position there, but the runner seeing the ball at second went the other way.

And the consensus here is that your second response was the better answer. You either needed to 1) stay with your inside positioning for a tag play back into 2nd, or 2) work to the outside mirror of that spot, positioning for a tag at 2nd with a better look at what BR/R2 is doing. Moving toward third is what everyone is disagreeing with, as it added nothing and took you farther from your responsibility for a play back into second, and took you farther from your primary responsibility for the trail.