Changing the Count After a Pitch

[Manny A]

Had an interesting scenario in a high school scrimmage, and wanted to get any official ruling or opinion on how to handle it.

Team on offense was from a brand new high school. So needless to say, they had a few players who did not have the highest levels of talent. One batter came up, and took a called Strike. On the next pitch, she "swung" (and I put it in quotes, because it was one of the worst swings I've ever seen in a game) at a pitch that was well outside and halfway to the backstop. For some reason that was explained to me after the game (I was evaluating the crew), the PU did not give a Strike mechanic.

The next pitch was a Ball. On the fourth pitch, the batter again swung at it (a little better swing) and the catcher failed to catch it. The batter's teammates were yelling for her to run to first, but she didn't move. The catcher retrieved the ball, and tagged the batter for the out. Or so I thought. The PU announced that the batter was still up, and signaled a 2-2 count.

The defensive coach requested Time to discuss the count. He politely argued that the batter had taken a called Strike on the first pitch, and then swung at two pitches. The PU said something to him, and he went back to the dugout shaking his head. No harm was done as the batter took the next pitch for a third Strike.

Now, after the game when I asked the crew what happened in that situation, the umpire told me he felt the batter had swung so late on the pitch, that it wasn't a legitimate offer to hit the ball, so he didn't consider it a Strike. I found that logic rather faulty, and suggested to him that he reconsider that position.

But suppose he simply never saw a complete normal swing of the pitch, one that was so obvious that there was no need for an appeal to the base umpire. And when the defensive coach came out a couple of pitches later to argue that the batter had struck out, the PU checks with his partner, and his partner verifies that the batter swung at the second pitch.

I know a checked swing cannot be appealed after a subsequent pitch is delivered. But what about this situation? Can the count be changed at that point if the PU agrees he never saw the swing? Or is it too late since there was a pitch (in fact, two of them in this game) delivered afterward?

[MD Longhorn]

If the umpire ruled, at the time, that the pitch was a ball, and no one came out and changed his mind, and another pitch is thrown, that pitch was a ball. Period.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Now, after the game when I asked the crew what happened in that situation, the umpire told me he felt the batter had swung so late on the pitch, that it wasn't a legitimate offer to hit the ball, so he didn't consider it a Strike. I found that logic rather faulty, and suggested to him that he reconsider that position.

Did you simply disagree with his judgment as to the timing of the swing or his interpretation of the rule? I'm sure you know this but there does come a point in the pitched ball where a swing is no longer a legitimate attempt to hit the ball.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Did you simply disagree with his judgment as to the timing of the swing or his interpretation of the rule? I'm sure you know this but there does come a point in the pitched ball where a swing is no longer a legitimate attempt to hit the ball.

I questioned his judgment. It was readily apparent that the batter was not very skilled, and her swing, while ill-timed, was done to try and make some sort of contact. There were no other base runners, so the swing wasn't one to try and disconcert the catcher while trying to make a play.

Sorry, but this wasn't rec ball. It was a high school varsity game, so I don't necessarily agree on cutting a player slack just because she isn't very good.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I questioned his judgment. It was readily apparent that the batter was not very skilled, and her swing, while ill-timed, was done to try and make some sort of contact. There were no other base runners, so the swing wasn't one to try and disconcert the catcher while trying to make a play.

OK I follow you now. That makes sense to me.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Welpe

OK I follow you now. That makes sense to me.

Had this happen in the game I coached last weekend. Looked like a swing to everyone except the 2 in blue. He approached me later and said that this particular batter did that on every pitch. Just lazily and inattentively slung her bat through the strike zone even if the pitch was 10 feet outside. I watched her later and he was right. On the pitch I questioned, it appeared to me she was trying to hit the ball, albeit extremely poorly, but I can see his point. Perhaps the batter in your play did the same.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Just lazily and inattentively slung her bat through the strike zone even if the pitch was 10 feet outside.

Looks like a swing to me, if I visualize correctly.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If the umpire ruled, at the time, that the pitch was a ball, and no one came out and changed his mind, and another pitch is thrown, that pitch was a ball. Period.

Key being "umpire ruled, at the time, that the pitch was a ball", not the same as correcting an erroneous count to match the actual calls.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Key being "umpire ruled, at the time, that the pitch was a ball", not the same as correcting an erroneous count to match the actual calls.

Absolutely, I agree.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Had an interesting scenario in a high school scrimmage, and wanted to get any official ruling or opinion on how to handle it.

Team on offense was from a brand new high school. So needless to say, they had a few players who did not have the highest levels of talent. One batter came up, and took a called Strike. On the next pitch, she "swung" (and I put it in quotes, because it was one of the worst swings I've ever seen in a game) at a pitch that was well outside and halfway to the backstop. For some reason that was explained to me after the game (I was evaluating the crew), the PU did not give a Strike mechanic.

Just out of curiosity, did he call "ball"?

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Just out of curiosity, did he call "ball"?

I certainly didn't hear it from my vantage point (pressbox above and behind the plate). From the reaction of her teammates, neither did her dugout. And from the action of the catcher and the questioning by the defensive coach, they didn't hear it. So if he did call Ball, it was pretty quiet.

In his defense, the PU probably didn't give a Strike mechanic. But once I saw the batter swing (albeit badly), I followed the catcher going after the wild pitch and didn't look for it.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I certainly didn't hear it from my vantage point (pressbox above and behind the plate). From the reaction of her teammates, neither did her dugout. And from the action of the catcher and the questioning by the defensive coach, they didn't hear it. So if he did call Ball, it was pretty quiet.

Oh dear.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by Manny A

But suppose he simply never saw a complete normal swing of the pitch, one that was so obvious that there was no need for an appeal to the base umpire. And when the defensive coach came out a couple of pitches later to argue that the batter had struck out, the PU checks with his partner, and his partner verifies that the batter swung at the second pitch.

I know a checked swing cannot be appealed after a subsequent pitch is delivered. But what about this situation? Can the count be changed at that point if the PU agrees he never saw the swing? Or is it too late since there was a pitch (in fact, two of them in this game) delivered afterward?

As an umpire who is evaluating other umpires, I would be a bit more selective and careful when choosing terminology.

With that said, you cannot go for help or make an appeal after a pitch has been thrown.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

As an umpire who is evaluating other umpires, I would be a bit more selective and careful when choosing terminology.

Sorry, that's the baseball in me. I still haven't kicked all of my baseball umpiring terminology.