ASA and U-trip Mens Slow Pitch - Changing Game Ball

[Larks]

Whats up Blues? I usually post a lot on the basketball side of this forum since thats my sport but I do play softball. Mostly ASA C and U-trip C. I'd like some feedback on changing the game ball out.

Most of the fields we play at, we are required to provide our own game balls. Each team gives the other a ball to start with and if there are any home runs or unretrievable balls hit out of play, the batting team throws in a replacement.

Last night (ASA) we had a ball hit well out of play onto another field. I asked the umpire if we could throw in a replacement (also brand new) ball since the other one was out of play and further had been used for about 4 innings. He denied my request because the original ball "was coming back in".

What is the rule for changing the ball out? Does the ball have to go out of play? Can a team change the ball out before an at-bat starts? Or, does the team have to wait until the ball cant be retrieved and / or the start of a new inning.

U-trip and ASA please.

Thanks

[ChampaignBlue]

Normally a ball hit out of play would cause a change of balls, however, in the interest of time most parks with multiple diamonds require that you wait for the ball to come back in. If a ball is hit onto diamond B from A B has to get the ball off their field before they can resume play, if A puts a different ball into play then B would have to wait for A to have a dead ball before throwing the original ball back onto A which is unfair to them. If it's a case of a fan near the ball we don't put a new one in play for fear that they will throw it onto the field during a live ball or giving it to the nearest player who throws it to the pitcher who then picks which ball he wants to throw which is also something we don't want to happen. Hope this helps you. Jim

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Larks
Whats up Blues? I usually post a lot on the basketball side of this forum since thats my sport but I do play softball. Mostly ASA C and U-trip C. I'd like some feedback on changing the game ball out.

Most of the fields we play at, we are required to provide our own game balls. Each team gives the other a ball to start with and if there are any home runs or unretrievable balls hit out of play, the batting team throws in a replacement.

Last night (ASA) we had a ball hit well out of play onto another field. I asked the umpire if we could throw in a replacement (also brand new) ball since the other one was out of play and further had been used for about 4 innings. He denied my request because the original ball "was coming back in".

What is the rule for changing the ball out? Does the ball have to go out of play? Can a team change the ball out before an at-bat starts? Or, does the team have to wait until the ball cant be retrieved and / or the start of a new inning.

U-trip and ASA please.

Thanks

Speaking ASA

Only the pitcher at the beginning of each half inning may request a change in the ball. Once asked, s/he must accept the ball that comes out of the umpire's bag.

In the bottom of the 1st inning, if a new ball is still available to the umpire, the new ball should be put into play after the visitors bat.

If a ball goes out of play, whichever ball comes out of the bag should go into the game. If you want to replace a ball out of play with a new one, I don't have a problem with that, but it isn't going to the pitcher, it's going in the bag. If two go out relatively close manner, I will accept the ball from the team and put that into the game if the other two are not available.

The only other time a ball should be removed from play is if it is damaged.

[Larks]

Thanks for the feedback. Are you guys talking what is done "in practice" or what is in the rules? Can you give me an idea where to read up on this rule in the book?

I'm curious whats behind this rule. In baseball, at least in the big leagues, you see all the time where a pitcher requests a new ball. I would think that if teams provide their own ball, provided the ball is an "official" ball, they should be able to change the ball out at their discretion provided they do so if a ball goes out of play or at the beginging of an at-bat.

[ChampaignBlue]

What Mike is refering to is the ASA proceedure for championship play, not a rule per say that you can protest over. Many local districts tell teir umps how to handle ball changes, for example when playing double headers we're asked to try and save a new ball for the 2nd game but if we need to we do put both balls in play during the 1st game. Your umpire was probably following a local "ground rule" so to speak.

[greymule]

Major League umps do not distinguish between new and used balls. All balls are considered new, which is not surprising since no ball stays in play for very long. How many balls are used in one MLB game? 30? 40? Nobody's hitting a ball that's soft.

There can be an enormous difference between new and used softballs, however. (The Dudley Day-Nites that were used when I played were live for one inning.) Softballs, even the same make and model, can deaden at unpredictable intervals. Some go from very live to very dead quickly; others last a while longer. Anyone who umps the home run crusher teams knows that the state of the ball is very much on their minds, and they try to manipulate getting the better ball to hit, especially when on defense they notice the ball is dead. If you're not careful, they'll conveniently "lose" it before they come up.

[gsf23]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Speaking ASA

Only the pitcher at the beginning of each half inning may request a change in the ball. Once asked, s/he must accept the ball that comes out of the umpire's bag.

In the bottom of the 1st inning, if a new ball is still available to the umpire, the new ball should be put into play after the visitors bat.

If a ball goes out of play, whichever ball comes out of the bag should go into the game. If you want to replace a ball out of play with a new one, I don't have a problem with that, but it isn't going to the pitcher, it's going in the bag. If two go out relatively close manner, I will accept the ball from the team and put that into the game if the other two are not available.

The only other time a ball should be removed from play is if it is damaged.
[/B]

In the situation Lark is talking about, Mike, the umpires don't handle the balls. Each team hits their own balls. If one of your hitters hits a ball out of play, then your team throws in ball, not the umpire. I've seen this done quite a bit at tourneys to cut down on the costs. Generally most teams will try hard to retrieve their own balls.

In the tourneys we have played in, we were allowed to change balls during any dead ball.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by gsf23


In the situation Lark is talking about, Mike, the umpires don't handle the balls. Each team hits their own balls. If one of your hitters hits a ball out of play, then your team throws in ball, not the umpire. I've seen this done quite a bit at tourneys to cut down on the costs. Generally most teams will try hard to retrieve their own balls.

In the tourneys we have played in, we were allowed to change balls during any dead ball.

Yes, and I have worked some of those tournaments early in my ASA career and will never work them again. Games take way too long. Players don't want to retrieve balls as quick as they put them out of play.

I would also add that there is a fair amount of liability by not allowing the umpire handle the balls. Get a ball in the game exceeds permitted production limits and a pitcher take a shot off the head and see how long it takes for the lawsuit.

Nope, if I'm working a game, I'm handling the balls. If they don't want to hit what comes out of the bag, oh well...

[gsf23]

In the tourneys we have done like that, if a ball wasn't readily available, you started calling strikes on the batter. Most teams would have a couple kids out there retreiving balls. We also had restrictions on the types of balls that could be used. Many times our pitcher would get a ball, call time and give it to the ump to show him it wasn't up to code so to say. The ball would be thrown out, if they didn't have another, start calling strikes.

[Larks]

The new 44 / 375 balls are great for the men's game but our limited experience on these is that they get even softer as the game goes by. Since they already are 67% of last year's balls new out of the box, it's going to be my strategy to keep the game balls as fresh as possible.

What I dont understand is why it's even an issue. Why does the the ASA care about this anyway? When it's obvious a game ball is worn out and everyone on both sides and the ump(s) know it....what harm is there to the game in rotating it? The only issue I think is important here is that the balls are official (.44 / 375). From there, if teams provide their own game balls, there is no advantage or disadvantage to either team if that ball is changed out at the batting teams discretion. I guess you could argue that a team may try to change the ball every batter but is that a realistic occurance or more of a one in 6,000 games occurance? Really, this game ball rotation thing is kind of dumb anyway. I personally have been in games where we knew that the ball was a sock and / or been used in 25 other games that week at the park in question. Every park in Cincinnati is guilty of that. What we did depending on the situation was to purposefully hit the ball foul and well out of play so that the umpire would rotate the ball.

The associations need to realize that we will all accept the change in the ball to offset bat technology but they need to give the players and teams some controls over the quality of the game as possible. We pay for everything now which is understandable in these economic times but we should have more quality control as a result. No softball player should ever have to hit a worn out ball, especially if their own team provided them.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Larks
The new 44 / 375 balls are great for the men's game but our limited experience on these is that they get even softer as the game goes by. Since they already are 67% of last year's balls new out of the box, it's going to be my strategy to keep the game balls as fresh as possible.

What I dont understand is why it's even an issue. Why does the the ASA care about this anyway? When it's obvious a game ball is worn out and everyone on both sides and the ump(s) know it....what harm is there to the game in rotating it? The only issue I think is important here is that the balls are official (.44 / 375). From there, if teams provide their own game balls, there is no advantage or disadvantage to either team if that ball is changed out at the batting teams discretion. I guess you could argue that a team may try to change the ball every batter but is that a realistic occurance or more of a one in 6,000 games occurance? Really, this game ball rotation thing is kind of dumb anyway. I personally have been in games where we knew that the ball was a sock and / or been used in 25 other games that week at the park in question. Every park in Cincinnati is guilty of that. What we did depending on the situation was to purposefully hit the ball foul and well out of play so that the umpire would rotate the ball.

The associations need to realize that we will all accept the change in the ball to offset bat technology but they need to give the players and teams some controls over the quality of the game as possible. We pay for everything now which is understandable in these economic times but we should have more quality control as a result. No softball player should ever have to hit a worn out ball, especially if their own team provided them.

Apparently, you have never had to deal with games where the teams would do everything they could to manipulate the ball. The reason ASA cares about it is because it is part of their job to make sure the teams are playing on a level field.

It's really a no-brainer as far as most umpires are concerned. Here is the ball, hit the ball. If you want the ball out of the game, hit it out of play and don't retrieve it! Replace it. How hard is that? It is a big ball approaching a batter with a $300-$400 bat at 4 to 5 MPH. Hit the damn thing into the woods, pond, river, ocean, whatever! Or just hit it out of play, replace it, and then retrieve the dud and put it in your equipment bag or the trash can.

If the players are stupid enough to retrieve a worn ball and return it to the umpire, I'll just say, "Thank you, Forrest" and put it in my bag.

[Larks]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
[B]

Originally posted by Larks

Apparently, you have never had to deal with games where the teams would do everything they could to manipulate the ball. The reason ASA cares about it is because it is part of their job to make sure the teams are playing on a level field.

It's really a no-brainer as far as most umpires are concerned. Here is the ball, hit the ball. If you want the ball out of the game, hit it out of play and don't retrieve it! Replace it. How hard is that? It is a big ball approaching a batter with a $300-$400 bat at 4 to 5 MPH. Hit the damn thing into the woods, pond, river, ocean, whatever! Or just hit it out of play, replace it, and then retrieve the dud and put it in your equipment bag or the trash can.

If the players are stupid enough to retrieve a worn ball and return it to the umpire, I'll just say, "Thank you, Forrest" and put it in my bag.

Irish, I agree 100% that both teams should be on an equal playing field. No question. But, I think you are missing my point....we provide our own balls where we play however they must be Worth .44 Cor, 375 Compression. There is little or no effort placed around here to hit illegal balls because we all buy the same balls from the parks anyway. Personally I would have no problem fliping said replacement to the umpire before it makes it to the pitcher so he could confirm it's legal. I've seen some umpires do that.

What does the speed of the pitch or the equipment have to do with this question? All I want to do is have a little more control over the quality of the ball, especially since we now have to pay for them after years of park's taking advantage of teams by giving one new game ball and 3 or 4 WELL TRAVELED replacements.

I agree we can simply hit it out of play but that doesnt answer my question....who is disadvantaged by allowing the ball to be replaced? Why go thru the farce (my opinion) of hitting it out of play on purpose which forces the Umpire to change it. Another by product of this "strategy" is injury potential. If I attempt to hit the ball out of play on purpose, how many people could potentially get injured? Sometimes none. Sometimes lots.

How about the umpire not worrying about what is used so long as it's an approved ASA 44 / 375 ball confirmed so by him / her before being thrown in? Isnt that easier than going thru all the other motions?

Did you mean "Thank You Forrest" or "Stupid is as Stupid Does"?

[IRISHMAFIA]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larks

What does the speed of the pitch or the equipment have to do with this question? All I want to do is have a little more control over the quality of the ball, especially since we now have to pay for them after years of park's taking advantage of teams by giving one new game ball and 3 or 4 WELL TRAVELED replacements.

I agree we can simply hit it out of play but that doesnt answer my question....who is disadvantaged by allowing the ball to be replaced? Why go thru the farce (my opinion) of hitting it out of play on purpose which forces the Umpire to change it. Another by product of this "strategy" is injury potential. If I attempt to hit the ball out of play on purpose, how many people could potentially get injured? Sometimes none. Sometimes lots.

How about the umpire not worrying about what is used so long as it's an approved ASA 44 / 375 ball confirmed so by him / her before being thrown in? Isnt that easier than going thru all the other motions?

I've been there and done that. It isn't easier if I need to change a ball every other batter and that is exactly what I ran into when they tried to do that in this area. Seven inning game taking 2 hours doesn't make it.

Did you mean "Thank You Forrest" or "Stupid is as Stupid Does"?

Yepper

[ChampaignBlue]

All mike is saying is that all balls need to go through the umpire, the pitcher can ask for a new ball and that the umpire can determine that a ball needs to be retired. Most umpires will get rid of a dead ball once they hear it. If it's left up to the offense to decide I'm with Mike in that they will try to get the "juiced ball" into the game far too often and there is a serious liability issue for the umpire with the bats out there and a criminal (as in manslaughter) issue for the person that offered the juiced ball. If you guys had showed restraint and not paid $300 for a bat we wouldn't have this issue at all, but there's no putting that genie back into the bottle. Jim

[Larks]

Originally posted by ChampaignBlue
All mike is saying is that all balls need to go through the umpire, the pitcher can ask for a new ball and that the umpire can determine that a ball needs to be retired. Most umpires will get rid of a dead ball once they hear it. If it's left up to the offense to decide I'm with Mike in that they will try to get the "juiced ball" into the game far too often and there is a serious liability issue for the umpire with the bats out there and a criminal (as in manslaughter) issue for the person that offered the juiced ball. If you guys had showed restraint and not paid $300 for a bat we wouldn't have this issue at all, but there's no putting that genie back into the bottle. Jim

"Juiced"? All I am asking for is to use APPROVED, OFFICIAL, CHECKED BY THE UMPIRE, Softballs that are not worn out. This has nothing to do with the bats. I just figure that since we pay to get in the park, pay for the leagues, pay for our gloves, uniforms, $4.00 beers and NOW Pay for the balls, we should AT LEAST not be forced to hit a ball that is worn out after 6 innings OR worse, some duct tape ball thats been laying in the park managers office for two seasons and seen 26 games!!

How does one Juice a softball anyway? Our leagues use Worth .44 cor, 375 compression balls. When one is hit out of play and doesnt come back, we throw in a a REPLACEMENT WORTH .44, 375.

Why do I sense such animosity towards the player over this bat thing? There is plenty of blame to go around here. Manufacturers, the associations, the parks and the players all share some guilt in the problem. The good news is that it's slowly but surely being addressed.

Here's a question....Does every problem we discuss here always have to revert to bats?

PLAYER: "That strike was kinda deep ump!"

UMP: "So, You have a $300 bat and it's only traveling 5 mph"


PLAYER: "Ump, he was safe"

UMP: "He used a $300 bat, he's out"


PLAYER: "Blue that ball went out of play, we'd like to change it out"

Ump: No, you spent $300 on that bat"