2013 CCA Umpire Manual

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

IMO, your assertion that the outside is a clearer or easier view is not accurate. What are you going to see outside that I will not see inside? I will have the defense, offense, ball and base in front of me.

Staying outside gives you a weak angle for a potential play @ 2B that may require some fancy footwork to get the right angle for a clear view at the play. Being inside can give the umpire an effortless 90 to any throw from the right side and a great look at a play on either side of the base. Also allows and easy and quick conversion from one base to the other depending on the play. Please note that just because I would be coming inside, doesn't mean I'm running to the middle of the field. Once I enter the diamond, I'm reading the play and like any other, move to the best position for the most likely, if any, play.

Outside may work out quite well for the routine plays. I'd prefer to stay a step ahead and prepare for the non-routine plays and I think the inside just offers a better opportunity to adjust.

The difference is between looking back over your shoulder or simply looking up. I prefer to look simply look up, rather than back over my shoulder to see the ball.

As I specifically wrote, this is if there is no play on the BR @ 2nd base. You have changed the facts to argue a point.

Sticking with my play (because that's the one written in the manual and the one we are discussing), can you say why it is better to go inside with NO play at 2nd base?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

The difference is between looking back over your shoulder or simply looking up. I prefer to look simply look up, rather than back over my shoulder to see the ball.

As I specifically wrote, this is if there is no play on the BR @ 2nd base. You have changed the facts to argue a point.

Sticking with my play (because that's the one written in the manual and the one we are discussing), can you say why it is better to go inside with NO play at 2nd base?

You and I are going to agree here. Yes, when a ball is hit to RF with no runners on and U1 chases, reading the play for 1) inside calling position at second or 2) staying outside for the runner into third (which is you play) is perfect application of NCAA mechanics. It affords U3 the best option at any base, based on the play. I am in total agreement, however the big lynchpin is U3 properly reading the play.

Now, while I'm not going to defend Irish, I will say that ASA's inside positioning is necessary because of something he is omitting. In 3 umpire ASA, when U1 chases at any times, U3 has responsibility for BR at first base; NCAA give the responsibility to PU for BR at first in this specific case. Therefore, U3 would be cutting across the diamond (possibly pitcher's plate) to cover first, take the runner to second and then to third. This deeper positioning does afford U3 an open look to stay out of any throwing lanes (yes, Mike . . throwing lane) that F8/F9/F4 would use to throw to third. But there is reading the ball and play for optional position, which is something ASA does not direct very well. It is getting better, but needs to vastly improve.

Therefore the debate isn't "outside vs. inside", but whether U3 should have responsibility at first base.

[shagpal]

The "chute" play is ASA way of accommodating for that slow and immobile silverback PU while torturing the usually speedy rookie "rabbit" U3 in true "not all umpires are created equal" fashion. If the play is obviously gonna be extra bases, how hard is it for an experienced PU to read that and watch the touch at first? Even Irish could do that.

Originally Posted by Big Slick

You and I are going to agree here. Yes, when a ball is hit to RF with no runners on and U1 chases, reading the play for 1) inside calling position at second or 2) staying outside for the runner into third (which is you play) is perfect application of NCAA mechanics. It affords U3 the best option at any base, based on the play. I am in total agreement, however the big lynchpin is U3 properly reading the play.

Now, while I'm not going to defend Irish, I will say that ASA's inside positioning is necessary because of something he is omitting. In 3 umpire ASA, when U1 chases at any times, U3 has responsibility for BR at first base; NCAA give the responsibility to PU for BR at first in this specific case. Therefore, U3 would be cutting across the diamond (possibly pitcher's plate) to cover first, take the runner to second and then to third. This deeper positioning does afford U3 an open look to stay out of any throwing lanes (yes, Mike . . throwing lane) that F8/F9/F4 would use to throw to third. But there is reading the ball and play for optional position, which is something ASA does not direct very well. It is getting better, but needs to vastly improve.

Therefore the debate isn't "outside vs. inside", but whether U3 should have responsibility at first base.

[x-tremeump]

I am sorry that I missed all of this... Kill The Clones I get angry at the OLD TIMERS and delete the forum from my favorites.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by shagpal

The "chute" play is ASA way of accommodating for that slow and immobile silverback PU while torturing the usually speedy rookie "rabbit" U3 in true "not all umpires are created equal" fashion. If the play is obviously gonna be extra bases, how hard is it for an experienced PU to read that and watch the touch at first? Even Irish could do that.

The way you people whine, you would think it was a 90' field. It isn't that hard to cover a small FP field.

FYI, in ASA if the PU doesn't have any other duties, guess what the PU is doing when the BR takes off to 1B?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

FYI, in ASA if the PU doesn't have any other duties, guess what the PU is doing when the BR takes off to 1B?

I think this is something that needs to be changed. What needs to be taught is to "tail the BR only when there is a play at first." NCAA finally made this explicit. Not that I'm saying it is correct because NCAA said it, it is just plainly "right."

Ok, let me justify. ASA's work force varies in experience and aptitude. To teach to this crowd, ASA very much strives for the simplest mechanics - inside/outside in an example as well as the one we are discussing about U3 taking first base when U1 chases. This is simple, very few mechanics are situational.

So ASA says: trail the BR to first with no runners on. But why? On a base hit, BU comes inside to take the runner, what is the PU going to see that BU can't? NOTHING. Except that we have two umpires that are about 20 feet from each other. That just looks goofy, and even more goofy on the DVD.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

The difference is between looking back over your shoulder or simply looking up. I prefer to look simply look up, rather than back over my shoulder to see the ball.

Maybe you have issues with umpires who are too lazy to watch the ball, but I am not aware of any situation where 3U would have to look over their shoulder to find the ball, outside or inside. So, you keep talking about something that should never happen with an umpire utilizing the proper mechanics.

As I specifically wrote, this is if there is no play on the BR @ 2nd base. You have changed the facts to argue a point.

As the umpire, you do not know that there will never be a play at 2B. As I noted, I'd rather be prepared for all possible plays, not just those that should occur in a perfect world.

Sticking with my play (because that's the one written in the manual and the one we are discussing), can you say why it is better to go inside with NO play at 2nd base?

IF there is no play at 2nd, it isn't any better. Otherwise, see above.

[EsqUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Maybe you have issues with umpires who are too lazy to watch the ball, but I am not aware of any situation where 3U would have to look over their shoulder to find the ball, outside or inside. So, you keep talking about something that should never happen with an umpire utilizing the proper mechanics.

If the ball is hit down the right field line, then the umpire's face has a tendency to be facing away from the ball when the umpire is inside the diamond. Yes, a competent umpire can look over his shoulder to see the ball.

If the umpire is inside the diamond, the runner has just rounded 2nd base and the right fielder is picking the ball up near the line, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see all of the elements at one time once the runner nears the shortstop area.

My point is that if the umpire stays outside the diamond, he is always facing the ball. Rather than finding the ball, it is always there in front of him.

All things being equal, I'd rather the ball be in front of my rather than look back to it.


Changing the play again, let's say there is a play at 2nd base and the umpire properly stayed outside in the NCAA game. Great - take two or three steps in and make the call. However, I don't buy that nonsense that you can't predict where the play is. That's what umpires do all the time. I can tell you there won't be a play at 2nd base if the right fielder dove for a ball on the line, missed it and it ends up against the outfield fence. Either the runner is going to 3rd base or she is the so inept that she is stopping at 2nd base with no play.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by EsqUmp

If the ball is hit down the right field line, then the umpire's face has a tendency to be facing away from the ball when the umpire is inside the diamond. Yes, a competent umpire can look over his shoulder to see the ball.

If the umpire is inside the diamond, the runner has just rounded 2nd base and the right fielder is picking the ball up near the line, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see all of the elements at one time once the runner nears the shortstop area.

My point is that if the umpire stays outside the diamond, he is always facing the ball. Rather than finding the ball, it is always there in front of him.

All things being equal, I'd rather the ball be in front of my rather than look back to it.

Talk about changing the parameters to suit an argument. I'm saying your perception of how I would cover this is wrong. Why would I need to turn my body away from the ball coming inside from 3B? Are you under the impression that I'm going to sprint to a location between the circle and 2B and just plant myself there? If so, I would like to know what I offered to give you that perception.

I'm coming inside the diamond and unless there is the obvious possibility of a play at 2B (which you are stating there will not be), I'm probably going to remain in the area closer to the 3BL. If it DOES seem possible the runner will check up at 2B or just beyond 3B, I'm just a couple strides from a 45 to 2B and can close as the play continues. If not, I will be facing the ball while in flight, all the way to 3B. Once it becomes obvious that any play will be at 3B, I will turn with the ball and maybe even sidle a couple steps toward the 3BL to get a view down the inside edge of the base. During the entire play, the ball will never see my back.

Changing the play again, let's say there is a play at 2nd base and the umpire properly stayed outside in the NCAA game. Great - take two or three steps in and make the call. However, I don't buy that nonsense that you can't predict where the play is. That's what umpires do all the time. I can tell you there won't be a play at 2nd base if the right fielder dove for a ball on the line, missed it and it ends up against the outfield fence. Either the runner is going to 3rd base or she is the so inept that she is stopping at 2nd base with no play.

So, you admit that it is possible that the runner could stop at 2B and there could be a play? You know, **** happens and no, the umpire or anyone else KNOWS it is going to happen. Runners sometimes do stupid things, from misreading a base coach to tripping over the base, it happens. There are also some players who wouldn't get to 2B on the play you described. Not everyone is Natasha Whatley.

Whether that umpire can get an angle with 2-3 steps depends a lot on the area from where the throw originates and the approach the runner takes toward the base. May work for him/her, may not. We can what if this until the cows come home, you have a prescribed NCAA mechanic base on probabilities and I have my preferred mechanic based on possibilities. I feel I will be more comfortable and flexible where I go and have less "oh, ****!" moments when a play breaks down

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I'm coming inside the diamond and unless there is the obvious possibility of a play at 2B (which you are stating there will not be), I'm probably going to remain in the area closer to the 3BL. If it DOES seem possible the runner will check up at 2B or just beyond 3B, I'm just a couple strides from a 45 to 2B and can close as the play continues. If not, I will be facing the ball while in flight, all the way to 3B. Once it becomes obvious that any play will be at 3B, I will turn with the ball and maybe even sidle a couple steps toward the 3BL to get a view down the inside edge of the base. During the entire play, the ball will never see my back.

Mike, these three pieces of information are the crux of the argument.

In ASA, you are not just coming inside the diamond, you have responsibility at first base. Therefore, you can't just "check up" at second.

Again, here is when you and Esq are in AGREEMENT. Reading the play is so very vital, and I will contend that this is a deficiency of ASA's training methodology. However, that is understandable, considering the wide variance in abilities and experience.

And here is where the inside falls apart. By your own admission, you have to follow the ball in flight, which means that you do not have the runner in your vision. So you are giving up on the obstruction? And again by YOUR s*** happens, you are giving up on that too because you were too worried about the flight of the ball?

Now I'll step out of my critique and help you out. The solution is to get DEEPER into the infield, and the come "into" a play at either second or third. That way you do keep everything in front of you while staying out of a throwing lane (yes, they do exist). However, the other solution is to 1) allow PU to have the responsibility at first and allow U3 more opportunity to read the play and utilize the best path possible.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Mike, these three pieces of information are the crux of the argument.

In ASA, you are not just coming inside the diamond, you have responsibility at first base. Therefore, you can't just "check up" at second.

That is true, but I do not have to be that close to see it. Besides, as I've been told, we are discussing NCAA . BTW, I don't remember saying anything about the umpire checking up at 2B

Again, here is when you and Esq are in AGREEMENT. Reading the play is so very vital, and I will contend that this is a deficiency of ASA's training methodology. However, that is understandable, considering the wide variance in abilities and experience.

Don't you start spreading rumors like that

And here is where the inside falls apart. By your own admission, you have to follow the ball in flight, which means that you do not have the runner in your vision. So you are giving up on the obstruction? And again by YOUR s*** happens, you are giving up on that too because you were too worried about the flight of the ball?

Now this is where you and Esq agree on missing the point I have made. Who says I'm going that far into the middle of the field? I am NOT a "you cannot have a play without the ball" believer. Which means I am watching the runner when near a defender and the ball will still be in front of me with the runner. But still, if there is going to be a play @ 3B, the ball will most likely turn me facing the runner approaching 3B. And if the runner is getting there that far ahead of the ball, I may be moving my priority to the runner when nearing the base or defender. Doesn't mean I do not know where the ball is, it just means I am focusing on the play at hand.

Now I'll step out of my critique and help you out. The solution is to get DEEPER into the infield, and the come "into" a play at either second or third. That way you do keep everything in front of you while staying out of a throwing lane (yes, they do exist). However, the other solution is to 1) allow PU to have the responsibility at first and allow U3 more opportunity to read the play and utilize the best path possible.

Again, a 60' field is SMALL, very SMALL. It doesn't take as much effort as people think. And if some old fart like myself can handle it, someone as young and healthy as you should be able to do it standing on your head.

The umpire must take into consideration more than where s/he is going to stand to view the play. The umpire must be aware of the direction of the throw, the defenders in place to make a play and especially if there is a player in position to cut the throw should a runner check up or stumble and attempts to retreat. No matter how rare it is, if the umpire is not prepared for it......well, I just want to make sure that is not what happens.

All I am saying which seems to be the point missed is that I can (and any umpire should be able to) work the inside from 3B and still keep the ball the runner and defenders involved in front of me without looking over a shoulder and be prepared for the TWP that no one ever expects.

BTW, I can, and have, done this in ASA ball also and with up to 80' bases (Major SP). The advantage there is that the likelihood of a throw to 1B is extremely rare, damn near non-existent, but you still watch the touch along with the PU

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That is true, but I do not have to be that close to see it. Besides, as I've been told, we are discussing NCAA . BTW, I don't remember saying anything about the umpire checking up at 2B

Well, the discussion is contrasting the two philosophies, so ASA comes into play. More on the umpire "checking up" in just a moment.

Now this is where you and Esq agree on missing the point I have made. Who says I'm going that far into the middle of the field? I am NOT a "you cannot have a play without the ball" believer. Which means I am watching the runner when near a defender and the ball will still be in front of me with the runner. But still, if there is going to be a play @ 3B, the ball will most likely turn me facing the runner approaching 3B. And if the runner is getting there that far ahead of the ball, I may be moving my priority to the runner when nearing the base or defender. Doesn't mean I do not know where the ball is, it just means I am focusing on the play at hand.

No, we both got the point, and you make our point for us as well. What you are doing is READING the play. If the most likely play is at second, you don't continuing all the way to first; if you get indication the runner is not stopping at second, you take a different path/vantage point. Furthermore, you also know where the ball is coming from: from Right Center, you are more tight to the base; closer to the RF line, you are wider.

Our point is that ASA lacks this in their training by not allowing the umpire options. How about this: I stay outside on this play, how many times will I lose any element? Answer: none. If I come inside, and you have seen this, how many time do we see umpires duck out in the last minute? Answer: often. There is a multi-faceted solution to this and it involves more than just staying outside or moving inside. It can be done inside, but you have to use your brain.

someone as young and healthy as you should be able to do it standing on your head.

Don't go spreading that rumor. I've put a few orthopod's kids through college. And young? Hell, I lived through the Reagan years (ok, I was not eligible to vote for Ronnie either time).

The umpire must take into consideration more than where s/he is going to stand to view the play. The umpire must be aware of the direction of the throw, the defenders in place to make a play and especially if there is a player in position to cut the throw should a runner check up or stumble and attempts to retreat. No matter how rare it is, if the umpire is not prepared for it......well, I just want to make sure that is not what happens.

Yes, yes and yes. It actually takes a lot more energy to do this inside than outside. That's rather paradoxical, in that ASA requires the mechanic with the most effort to those with the least talent.

All I am saying which seems to be the point missed is that I can (and any umpire should be able to) work the inside from 3B and still keep the ball the runner and defenders involved in front of me without looking over a shoulder and be prepared for the TWP that no one ever expects.

I did say you can, but there is greater risk for missing something. And it also involves the level of play. As you mentioned, in Major SP, there wasn't any plays at first, and probably not that many triples (doubles or HR's, right?). In the GOLD last year, I can't recall having any triples (and I'm happy I didn't have any U1 chasing with no on for me to get my young and healthy self across to first - but I did see a U3 trip on the sprinkler on the stadium field!). But other divisions is a different story.

Bottom line, I prefer to have an option.

[PATRICK]

someone as young and healthy as you

I saw Big Slick Sunday, he is VERY healthy!