Trivia 3

[ASA Ump MN]

Thanks Andy!

"IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine)."

That's what my UIC just told me so I'm going with that..

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by ASA Ump MN

Thanks Andy!

"IMJ, picking up the ball from the plate establishes control. However, the ball is no longer on the plate, and a separate action is required to record the force at home (either re-touching the plate with the ball or stepping on the plate would be fine)."

That's what my UIC just told me so I'm going with that..

Then ask your UIC this ... if a player has the ball in a bare hand, dives for the base to beat a runner and lands with only the ball touching the base - is that runner out (assume a force or first base)?

If you have a different answer here - justify that within the context of the rules.

When the player lifts the ball, they demonstrate that they had control of the ball while it was on the ground being picked up. If they did not have control when they began to lift their hand, the ball would come out.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Then ask your UIC this ... if a player has the ball in a bare hand, dives for the base to beat a runner and lands with only the ball touching the base - is that runner out (assume a force or first base)?

If you have a different answer here - justify that within the context of the rules.

When the player lifts the ball, they demonstrate that they had control of the ball while it was on the ground being picked up. If they did not have control when they began to lift their hand, the ball would come out.

There is your answer underlined. Player already had "ball in hand" and touched base. Very different from ball laying on base and not in hand.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

There is your answer underlined. Player already had "ball in hand" and touched base. Very different from ball laying on base and not in hand.

What makes it different... in both cases, the ball is under the control of the fielder. If they are able to pick it up, then they controlled it in that instant.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Not sure if I could locate it immediately, but I am positive there is an NFHS ruling or case play which does require the player to pick the ball off the ground before the runner.

I am equally sure that ASA and NCAA both allow the umpire judgment of control if the player can come up with the ball cleanly, even after the runner has passed, as long as the player doesn't do anything additional (ie, now wrap fingers around, or tighten the grip) in between. Although you can more easily sell "no control" on the trap than control bringing it up later, the ability to sell it shouldn't affect how we call it, should it?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Not sure if I could locate it immediately, but I am positive there is an NFHS ruling or case play which does require the player to pick the ball off the ground before the runner.

I am equally sure that ASA and NCAA both allow the umpire judgment of control if the player can come up with the ball cleanly, even after the runner has passed, as long as the player doesn't do anything additional (ie, now wrap fingers around, or tighten the grip) in between. Although you can more easily sell "no control" on the trap than control bringing it up later, the ability to sell it shouldn't affect how we call it, should it?

For some odd reason, with equal evidence , I have a feeling it is just the opposite where NFHS allows the ball to covered and considered in possession if the fielder can then demonstrate control by lifting it off the ground.

[Crabby_Bob]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Not sure if I could locate it immediately, but I am positive there is an NFHS ruling or case play which does require the player to pick the ball off the ground before the runner.

I am equally sure that ASA and NCAA both allow the umpire judgment of control if the player can come up with the ball cleanly, even after the runner has passed, as long as the player doesn't do anything additional (ie, now wrap fingers around, or tighten the grip) in between. Although you can more easily sell "no control" on the trap than control bringing it up later, the ability to sell it shouldn't affect how we call it, should it?

NFHS 2.9.5 Sit C: F3 secures a thrown ball while it is in contact with the ground and her hand is on top of the ball. F3 turns her hand over so the ball is facing upward (a) before; or (b) after the batter-runner touches first base. RULING: In both (a) and (b) the batter-runner is out. F3 demonstrated control of the thrown ball by turning it upward. COMMENT: Umpires must determine if the fielder had control of the ball before the runner touched the base. This is a similar situation to the umpire asking to "see the ball" after a tag has been made. (2-9-5f).

[MD Longhorn]

Just curious ... I know a couple of you are quite a ways up the flagpole, so to speak, but 2 of you that I KNOW are high up seem to disagree on this. Wondering if one of you or both could contact someone from whom an opinion on this would be definitive. Now that we've posted this and the minds I trust to be right are not in agreement, I KNOW this will happen to me next year.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

What makes it different... in both cases, the ball is under the control of the fielder. If they are able to pick it up, then they controlled it in that instant.

Don't have citation, but to me it is equivalent to a trapped ball. If ball is touching the ground in an effort to field the ball, "control" is being provided by the player and the ground. We don't have possession until the ball is lifted away.

For a play at a base, if in the process of catching the ball, the ball remains in contact with the ground or the base I wouldn't call an out unless the ball was lifted. But if Fn had ball in hand and the tags the base with the ball that would be an easy out.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Don't have citation, but to me it is equivalent to a trapped ball. If ball is touching the ground in an effort to field the ball, "control" is being provided by the player and the ground. We don't have possession until the ball is lifted away.

For a play at a base, if in the process of catching the ball, the ball remains in contact with the ground or the base I wouldn't call an out unless the ball was lifted. But if Fn had ball in hand and the tags the base with the ball that would be an easy out.

There is a difference between a ball that is trapped under a glove, and one where the fielder is gripping it with the bare hand as we're discussing, IMO. With the glove, you can't see that the ball is being securely held underneath. With th bare hand, you can.

I honestly can't understand why some people feel that a gripped ball that is still touching the ground is not under the fielder's control. If I ever see a ball fall from a fielder's hand when he/she grips it and then lifts the hand, then I'll change my opinion on this. But I feel pretty confident that that won't happen.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

I honestly can't understand why some people feel that a gripped ball that is still touching the ground is not under the fielder's control. If I ever see a ball fall from a fielder's hand when he/she grips it and then lifts the hand, then I'll change my opinion on this. But I feel pretty confident that that won't happen.

Really? You ever see a defender lose the grip on the ball when applying a tag? I have, so obviously that "grip" isn't all it is made out to be.

It is real simple. The fielder needs to demonstrate control of the ball. Okay, demonstrate it. All a smart player would do is just roll over the hand holding the ball on the base.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

don't have citation, but to me it is equivalent to a trapped ball. If ball is touching the ground in an effort to field the ball, "control" is being provided by the player and the ground. We don't have possession until the ball is lifted away.

For a play at a base, if in the process of catching the ball, the ball remains in contact with the ground or the base i wouldn't call an out unless the ball was lifted. But if fn had ball in hand and the tags the base with the ball that would be an easy out.

+1