Need Help On Rule

[cal9323]

I can tell you 100% that if he did not touch the ball there is NO WAY that ball would have gone under the fence.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by cal9323

I can tell you 100% that if he did not touch the ball there is NO WAY that ball would have gone under the fence.

Let me give you scenario:

Bases loaded with two outs. A right handed batter hits a smash down the first base line. The fair batted ball bounces up and hits the first baseman on the shoulder and bounces over the dugout. Regardless of the fact that the ball hit the defender or the defender touched the ball this is a ground rule double.

Anytime a fair batted ball goes in to dead ball territory under its own momentum and as long as the act was not intentional you have a ground rule double. The exception to this would be if a fair batted fly ball goes off of a defender glove and over the home run fence fair you would have a four base error which would not count against the home run count.

From the way I read the OP this is pretty much the same play I described at the top of this post.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Let me give you scenario:

Bases loaded with two outs. A right handed batter hits a smash down the first base line. The fair batted ball bounces up and hits the first baseman on the shoulder and bounces over the dugout. Regardless of the fact that the ball hit the defender or the defender touched the ball this is a ground rule double.

This is a different scenario than the one in the OP. Here, the ball deflects off a fielder. This is clearly covered by 8-5I(2). In essence, the ball's momentum is what caused it to go out of play. The fielder just happened to redirect that momentum.

That's not what happened in the OP play. There, the ball's momentum would not have caused it to go into DBT. It was the fielder's action that provided it the impetus to leave the field. You can't use 8-5I(2) here.

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto

Anytime a fair batted ball goes in to dead ball territory under its own momentum...

Again, that's not what happened in the OP. So you can't rule it a straight-up ground rule double or, more appropriately said, a two-base award from time-of-pitch.

If we can't use 8-5I(2), which rule do we use? The problem is, there is no specific rule that covers this. That's why ASA came out with the rule clarification that Irishmafia provided. And they cited 8-5G as the rule that most closely applies to this situation. Since 8-5G only applies to thrown balls, the clarification specifically tells us that a ball unintentionally kicked into DBT is treated the same as a throw.

So, the correct ruling for the OP is to award all runners two bases from when the fielder unintentionally kicked the ball under the fence.

Yeah, it kinda makes 8-5K moot. But on a thrown ball into DBT, the ruling is the same whether it is intentional or not. The real reason behind 8-5K is to provide a more severe penalty for situations where a one-base award would apply if done unintentionally, such as when a fielder catches a fly ball near a DBT boundary and then goes beyond that boundary, or when a catcher chases down an errant pitch and then sends it into the dugout.

But when it comes to batted balls, 8-5G is the best rule, per the ASA clarification, to use should a fielder provide the momentum to send the ball into DBT when the ball's momentum wouldn't have caused it to go out.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by cal9323

I can tell you 100% that if he did not touch the ball there is NO WAY that ball would have gone under the fence.

That is irrelevant to the rule. What matters is (1) did he have possession or was he still playing a batted ball, and (2) did he do this intentionally or not.

If the ball's status was still a batted ball, and if the umpire ruled this was unintentional, then the award for this is a 'book-rule double' (not a ground-rule double).

Sometimes, it may seem that the rules burn one team or the other. In this case, you think the offense got robbed of additional bases. There are other scenarios where the defense will think the offense got more bases than they deserved. But the ruling is the same.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Originally Posted by celebur

'book-rule double' (not a ground-rule double).

Please see Rules Supplement...#26 I believe...its "Ground Rule Double"